World Of Warcraft

Many MM Os present their PVP as war games, small scale factions fighting or an outdated conflict that the plot moves away from but the game still allows it.

Technically Wo W has done all 3.

I find that the long running franchises I've got the most enjoyment out of are the ones that recognize that you need to change up the formula from time to time. If they keep trying to recreate the "magic" of how it all got going, eventually they end up making it all feel pointless since it's the same conflict happening again and again without anyone making real progress that isn't countered or undone in the next chapter.

It's okay to say "Yes this was the heart and soul of the franchise, but it's time to let it go."

I'm not purposing dissolving the Alliance and Horde entirely. They can still exist as rival world powers, but with an explicitly stated and actively enforced peace treaty in place that prevents any skirmishes and proxy conflicts from spiraling into a global war.

it was the heart and soul of the series in an RTS, a genre that basically requires multiple competing armies for players to play as.

In an MMO where half the time we're literally fighting the same antagonists, only to engineer another excuse to return to a conflict we know will never have as resolution, just engenders apathy.

Indeed, that may be where BfA is leading: towards a significant and sustained change in the status quo. I'm all for that, personally. We just need to get rid of the genocidal maniacs in the Horde leadership, and there's really only the one left.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

also in the alliance, because you aint gonna convince me Tyrande will stop until she has every horde members head on a pike now.

Can you blame her, really? That said, I think Anduin can rein her in, but only if the war turns out in the Alliance's favor. Also, I wouldn't really mind if Tyrande exterminated the Forsaken, but that's my Alliance bias speaking, obviously.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 14th 2018 at 12:34:08 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Blame her? not really. I just dont find it believable that a literal avatar of vengeance can be stopped until the last newborn child of orcish lineage breathes its death rattle. And I dont think Anduin can stop her without force.

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Nov 14th 2018 at 10:18:29 AM

Maybe good'ol Tyrande might go revenge crazy and become a raid boss. It'd be an alliance leader for a change

Uni cat

and Most of the issue there is that it would take a completely unambiguous Moral Event Horizon for Tyrande to be put into the "wrong" in the storytelling at this point. Sylvanas razing Teldrassil and then not immediately having the Horde turn on her has set a precedence for the Alliance to be justified in doing really dark, brutal things to the Horde while still being able to justifiably claim they're in the morally right. Most of the reason people are grumbling over Alliance attacking the Vulpera in 8.1 is because they only have tentative ties to the Horde, they're not official members yet so it feels like Misplaced Retribution, if it was a known Horde-aligned target doing the same thing, there would be zero contraversy.

I think like Midgetsnowman said, it would take Tyrande actually succeeding at a genocidal campaign of vengeance for her to be put into a situation of being any worse than Sylvanas already is and thrown into the "crazy now, villain time" trap.

Edited by NaraNumas on Nov 14th 2018 at 12:46:59 PM

While Tyrande is the incarnation of Elune's fury, does that fury extend to people whose only crime was being born in an enemy nation? Maybe, but there's no direct evidence of this.

She said the time for mercy is over, but how literally should we take this? Obviously she isn't going to be obliterating anyone who even slightly annoys her, which is technically an act of mercy if a trivial one. So there's a line somewhere between "trivial annoyance" and "participant in attempted genocide" and I wouldn't be so quick to make pronouncements on where the line has to be.

We don't even know if the Night Warrior transformation is permanent, or can be surpressed if need be.

That isn't to say I don't believe Tyrande isn't a potential threat to any potential peace deal, because she 100% is. I just don't think it's useful to think in such absolutist terms.

Edited by Falrinn on Nov 14th 2018 at 1:44:00 PM

This reminds me of a thought I've had. I've wondered once or twice whether or not the Alliance, as a whole, actually does consider the Horde a "rival world power".

Most of the Horde's history has been as a conquering army or a conquered enemy, most of the Alliance's leaders are veterans from that period, save Anduin, the Night Elves met the Horde before they established themselves as a nation, and even the Draenei mostly know orcs as the savage enemies of their prior homeworld.

Until very recently, the only already established nation that was part of the Horde was Quel'thalas. All of the other nations/capitals were either still in a relative infancy compared to most of their Alliance counterparts or, in the case of Lordaeron, an established nation taken over by what everyone else considers a hostile force.

How much of the trouble between the Alliance and the Horde stems from the possibility that the Alliance viewed them, not as another nation on par with themselves, but as an hostile army that they can't destroy outright. A pest that can be tolerated as long as they play nice, but will need to be dealt with eventually.

I've come to think that when this war is done, the Alliance will be forced the acknowledge that the Horde is here to stay and acknowledge them as equal powers in a way they never gave before now.

So, uh, to move away from the faction conflict controversy for a bit, Pilgrim's Feast next week, eh? Does it have seasonal pets and mounts?

RE: Red Savant

Personally I’d contest that. We are shown both in game and novels, Thunderbluff is a huge city and gigantic populations of tauren live there. Almost all tauren tribal leaders are there and its said in the novels, entire tribes are congregated there. Imagine how many tauren were separated from their families due to Baine’s incredibly foolish and cruel decision?

The tauren who disagreed or fought back against the Alliance, weren’t going for revenge. They were specifically targeting the Alliance forces literally attacking the ‘’’gates of Mulgore.'’’ Several of the Alliance forces were even literally focusing on Horde civilians.

I’ll note no one spoke out against Jaina allowing her troops to defend

RE: Fighteer

Admiral Roger’s actions are literally ‘’never’’ mentioned Hordeside. I already mentioned Wrathion going completely out of his way to whitewash the actions of an Alliance psychopath cowardly murdering Horde civilians including courtesans just one expansion ago.

The Horde still has Gallywix you know. And based on how only the Horde has done bad things since MOP, you know the writing would continue to have the Horde do evil things with or without Sylvanas.

You think we're supposed to take Wrathion's opinion as Holy Writ, now? He speaks for Blizzard?

Anyway, I've already said that I'm fine with Horde occupying the darker end of the moral spectrum between the two factions. That way players who like that sort of thing can gravitate towards the faction that represents them. Even without demonic influence, the Horde gathers races that are outcasts and pariahs or who have cultural tendencies towards greed, expansionism, and/or plain old villainy.

This isn't exactly a difficult point to grasp. It's not Horde Bad, Alliance Good, but neither is it Horde Good, Alliance Good.

All of these points are why I don't understand your complaints. What game have you been playing all this time, because it certainly isn't the one I've been playing.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:51:58 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

There's at least a turkey pet, if I remember correctly.

RE: Fighteer

Wrathion is supposed to be neutral, yet he's going out of his way to demonize an orc who didn't do anything wrong, whilst covering for an Alliance generals who did repeated terrible actions.

If Wrathion was truly neutral, he would mention all the terrible things the dwarf did to Horde civilians and that he exterminated an entire tribe.

Except the problem is the writers depict it as Black-and-White Morality, even Hordeside, since MOP, all Alliance NP Cs are depicted as saints. Its quite absurd.

And again, what is the point of getting rid of Sylvanas outside of once again sating Alliance player bloodlust? As mentioned, the Horde will continue to be VillainBalled anyhow and already has virtually no respectable characters left as mentioned before.

You know what, I'm tired of this argument. Believe what you will. I'm not going to change your mind.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:59:45 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Well what can be done to fix the Horde's lack of characters?

Wrathion isn't exactly a "neutral" party.

Uni cat

Probably for the best. Three comes a point when it's best to just add someone to your "ignore these peoples' posts" list and move on.

At the risk of sounding like the kind of "Sylvanas is my waifu" comment I called out earlier, I honestly, sincerely, in my heart of hearts believe that somewhere, on some level, the folks who earn places in that list have forgotten that none of this is real. It's fun it act and discuss things as if they are, but I truly believe some have forgotten to add the "as if" part.

Seriously, it's like arguing politics, the only thing that matters is if their name has an A or an H next to it and anyone else falls under "OTHER SIDE BAD!!!!!" It's the only theory I can think of that makes rational sense in the face of things like unironically viewing Gallywix as a better person than Greymane.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 14th 2018 at 2:24:35 AM

The faction conflict brings out the worst side of the fandom and I don't see the need to constantly push it, as it doesn't seem to please anyone.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 14th 2018 at 1:27:19 AM

My problem is when people take things like "lack of Horde leadership" and attribute it to bad writing or negligence instead of an intentional choice on the part of Blizzard. Everything that is happening now is part of a design and it hasn't come to a resolution yet. We don't always like stories in the middle.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 14th 2018 at 4:33:37 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

RE: Fighteer

Its hard to think otherwise though.

Its been 6 years since Mists of Pandaria, the orcs still both lack a racial leader, any story progression, or any new heroes.

Eitrigg was thrown as a champion last minute, simultaneously taking a Level in badass and aggression because the writers wanted notable orcs. Its found the follower role was originally going to go a Warsong warrior.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 14th 2018 at 1:39:22 AM

All that matters is the finished product, not the creative path to arrive at said product.

Also, if you think the Orcs lack a "racial leader", there's one currently in Stormwind Stockades who's about to "break out" and lead a full-fledged revolt against Sylvanas.

Morally. Grey.

Adding: For all his seeming spinelessness, Baine is also going to be forced to a decision point soon, and I expect him to fall on Saurfang's side. I can't say where the rest of the faction leaders are going to fall until we see it happen.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 14th 2018 at 4:44:23 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

RE: Fighteer

I'd argue stuff like the Orcs having no role in the final story Legion when the Burning Legion were responsible for corrupting their entire race and ruining their world to be a big problem with the finished product.

General consensus is Saurfang being let out by Anduin to weaken the Horde is a disservice to Saurfang's character. Its too little too late.

What happened to the next generations of orcs the story was building up too? It feels like the entire future of the orcs died with the Siege of Orgrimmar.

The writers have continued to do nothing with Baine and nothing to show he cares about his own people. See him brushing off Sylvanas raising tauren, whilst throwing a fit about Derek.

People have said a lot of nasty things about Malfurion in the past, but at least he always helped the Night Elves and never unjustly punished them for self defense.

As for morally grey, Sylvanas is a Card-Carrying Villain who hates hope, whilst Anduin is depicted as Saint loved by everyone who isn't evil.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 14th 2018 at 1:49:01 AM