Neon Genesis Evangelion

My first reaction to seeing the guy that caused a human extinction event and has the potential to do it again wouldn't be to pat him on the back and say I understand.

Kill Him!

The main answer to 'why can't Shinji just be behaving healthily?' in 2.0 is because you can't just ignore depression. It's a brain chemical imbalance that you need to actively address and deal with as long as you live, not something that just goes away if you stop paying attention to it. His behaviour in 2.0 is a incredibly unhealthy - if you tie your self-worth to success, you're left with no defence when you fail.

And no, Anno did not say he'd die for his wife. He said her happiness was his primary goal - sacrifice and suffering never shows up in that quote. It's about helping her, not hurting him.

@Muzozavr

I also disliked EOE quite a lot. If everything is redebubed, nothing needs it more than End of Evangelion.

I wouldn't hold it against Shinji. Existence is overrated. Like, literally. That was one of my big criticisms of the original anime. Being alive is not some good to be celebrated.

Still, I find it a stretch that Anno decided to make Shinji's actions that he didn't intend and statements made in the heat of an intense situation into what we see in 3.33. I guess his depression made that happen, when he feels like he didn't intend for that to happen. He never really gave any clear indication I felt that he made his decision to save Rei because he no longer cared about himself.

He literally says it outright after going on a massive guilt-trip over the Bardiel incident. There's plenty of warning signs before Kaworu has to impale him.

Most I saw was him brooding via refusing to pilot again. Heck, he seemed much more self-destructive before seeing Rei suffer for his inaction. And again, the one statement he made can just as easily be chalked up to the circumstances of the situation.

I think Iaculus has it right in how we're supposed to see the scene, which Anno makes clear whwn it leads to a near global armageddon and the later to a second one when he doesn't learn from it.

Man, talk about prioritizing telling themes over coherent storytelling, at least to me. Apparently context of the situation matters little when Anno so desperately wants viewers to feel the same way as him. I mean, there really was no reason to turn Shinji's action of saving Rei at the cost of himself into some allegory for self-destructive behavior, no was there a need to make the consequences and people's reactions to his mistake so immense other than that the themes could be made obvious. What was so wrong with leaving it up to interpretation?

Then again, remember that Anno became depressed again during 3.0's development, and the script went through several rewrites. So I'm still not onboard the idea that Anno fully intended Shinji saving Rei to be a bad thing.

It was very much presented as not good. In fact from the translated interviews from when 3.0 was released I could easily see it hitting precisely because the weight of what Shinji does is so beyond what a normal human can do, that it could overhwelm you in just how unreal it can feel. I even feel the rewrites were likely to go deeper into how Shinji breaks to reflect that. Likely with Anno breaking as he got more into the process of how much this would influence Shinji and everyone else.

You put youself into the shoes of a character strong enough and you can easily feel what they would.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 18th 2019 at 9:05:17 AM

At the very least, I do have to wonder if Anno taking the direction he did was really worth it, because at it did for him was put him in another depressed state. Your mental health is more important than trying to communicate themes after all. Had it been more ambiguous or balanced in its approach, I don't think it would've come off as so mean-spirited.

Like, with the ending of 2.22, it feels to me that he focused too much on the words uttered and not on the context. Heck, what one can see as a selfish action can also be seen as selfless by others. And for that matter, how much more value do you place on people who you don't have as much of a strong connection to? There's always two sides to every coin, and I just take issue with his decision to focus on just one side.

The ending of 2.22 could've been used to start some interesting conversations and ideals about the meaning of a single person's life in relation to everyone else, how a certain context can affect the actions and mentality of a person in a stressful situation, the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few, what separates love from being selfless and selfish, and simply how both acting for yourself vs. acting for others has both ups and downs. All this potential for stuff that could make for interesting character development and plot points, yet Anno threw it all down the gutter just to forcibly push an incredibly one-sided diatribe about escapism and self-destruction without bothering to think about the other side. Heck, WILLE being seen as the honorable heroes and Shinji as the pathetic loser despite the former's treatment of him only adds to that.

Maybe I've just been affected by how other works like Puella Magi Madoka Magica The Movie: Rebellion and Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty dealt with their themes in a more balanced way, but I much prefer it when both sides are shown to have their ups and downs, as opposed to just the latter. Here, it all just feels like wasted potential all in the name of the message Anno apparently thinks is so worth needing to cram down the throats of the viewers.

Edited by LDragon2 on Jan 18th 2019 at 11:43:13 AM

Again, Evangelion has always been about depression. A traditional self-sacrificing heroic narrative doesn't work with that, any more than a harrowing drama about alcoholism can turn into a boozy fratboy comedy, and you should be immediately suspicious if a remake by the same author looks like it might be headed in that direction.

If Anno didn't want to make a movie series about depression, he wouldn't have gone back to the well of Evangelion.

Even so, I have to question if him falling into another depression was truly worth him going into the direction he took in 3.33.

It's not about the direction he took. It's about him choosing to do more NGE work at all. It is a story about depression, and that requires you to examine and express your own history with depression. 2.0 was depressing for him too.

Death of the Author.

The truly interesting things about Eva seem to have very little to do with what Hideaki Anno thought or thinks. They're the creation of fans using their own imagination and insights to examine the work and come to their own conclusions.

There might be fanfics of Rebuild 3 that deal with exactly what you suggested.

Evangelion was originally going to be a typical otaku-bait mecha anime. When Anno's mindset changed in response to his revulsion for otaku culture, what Evangelion would be changed along with it. Any chance of a traditional story with a cathartic sense of pay-off or closure died when it became a story about depression back in 1995. Rebuild is the original property revisited. It isn't reinventing the story and didn't even skew off the beaten path until 2.0. This was never going to be the story where Shinji, Rei and Asuka get to talk about their feelings, hold hands and heal as people. That it happened this way not once, but twice, should indicate that Anno does have a vision of what Eva is and your vision of what it should be just doesn't match that. He's not wrong, or pretentious, or stubborn, or conceited or whatever other negative you want to throw at him for pursuing his art his way. Its very clearly a personal experience for him given how it affects him when working on it. Ignoring the subtext that the story has as a result is just going to make the product feel incomplete and unsatisfying.

Part of what makes the series compelling to me is that even taking all of that into account, it isn't satisfying in a traditional way that comedies are. Its a tragedy. It grates against what you want to happen and crescendos into this train wreck of emotion caused by these underlying conflicts that never get resolved.

Yes, Rei and Shinji started to connect. That it never managed to help either of them in the long run is part of the tragedy running through the story. That the tragic elements are never "fixed" is what makes it a tragedy. Its not wrong; its just not going to go well for the characters because that's not what kind of story this is.

If you want a more optimistic story very clearly inspired by this one, watch Planet With instead.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Jan 19th 2019 at 9:53:41 AM

Except Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy is a thing. Whatever he's trying to tell us, we won't care if we don't have a reason to care. I mean, showing how much Shinji is suffering from depression is all well and good, but completely pointless if we know he'll never, ever get better because Anno won't let him.

Edited by amitakartok on Jan 19th 2019 at 6:19:36 PM

Every version of Evangelion so far ends with Shinji getting magical CBT (no, not that kind of CBT, save it for the doujins) and taking a positive step towards escaping the hell he's stuck in. Even 3.0, one of the grimmest pieces of Evangelion media, has a "Ray of Hope" Ending. The kids will probably be OK in the long run, it's just that them being OK depends on the story engaging with the problems they're burdened with. The takeaway from Shinji's big heroic moment going sideways at the end of 2.0 is not 'Shinji can never be happy' but 'this is not a healthy way for Shinji to try to be happy', and 3.0 explains why that is before showing someone else doing the same thing in a healthier way.

Yeah, I still don't know. While the ending of 3.0 is obviously meant to be a ray of hope, for me, it simply wasn't enough to balance out the overwhelmingly bleak and mean-spirited tone of the rest of the film. Having to wait for nearly a decade in between this and FINAL sure doesn't help matters, as I've had to change and grow as a person, but these characters are still stuck in the same hopeless spot. As a result, I'm finding it harder and harder to care or be able to relate to Shinji or his plight, especially since the situation he's found himself in strays so far from what most people in real life have to go through. Even if he finds peace with himself, the fact that he unknowingly killed millions and the rest of the film's reaction to it pretty much makes any outcome for him other than a Heroic Sacrifice or actual Reset Button rather hard to stomach. And we all know Anno won't do either of those, especially given his view of living being the only thing one should try to do.

And look, of course I want tragic elements in an Evangelion work, why else do you think I became interested in the series to begin with? What I also want however is a reason to care, and for the storyline to not be yanked around in so many directions just to pile on more angst and misery in order to hammer home the depression theme. In the original, I was willing to look over the few cracks in the writing because it was clear Anno made it while going through a severe case of depression in his life, and the story naturally built up the tone over the course of several episodes, to the point where the extremely bleak EOE I could get behind. Here though, he dumps everything into one film with very little build up aside from a few throw-away lines that could've been excused as being a result of an intense situation and sharp focus, not a sign of self-loathing and the like. Not to mention that he wasn't depressed when starting work on the series, only really falling into it when 3.0 was in production, making me feel that he just threw the theme in there simply because it's expected of the franchise, when really, that just makes the film more predictable, and the fact he wound up depressed again really makes me question whether or not that was a healthy choice for him to make.

If anything, this just made the flaws in his writing style only more obvious to me. Yes, it's a personal matter to him, and I see that. But that doesn't make him some sort of critique-proof legend.

@amitakartok

Ya know, DIAA is a good explanation for why I'm so meh about Instrumentality. Some people try to say Evangelion is idealistic or something? I can't think of a more joyless work of fiction. There is nothing to fight for or to believe in. The anime kinda made it a happy ending in its own way but the EOE stomped that into death. I have not seen Rebuild 3 but it also seems to have stomped a happy ending into death.

There's just...no reason to care. Why is the world worth saving? All good deeds are punished, nothing is being accomplished or saved. Why not just give up?

Edited by Nikkolas on Jan 20th 2019 at 1:40:21 AM

Evangelion is about being trapped in a mindset that dooms you to failure. Your choices don't matter because they're based on the wrong premises - you're making tough decisions rather than questioning how tough those decisions have to be, for instance. The point of the story, and of End of Evangelion, is to look for and discover a new mindset that lets you interact with the world without being destroyed by it. Shinji and Asuka's rebirth in EOE is messy and twisted, but it's their choice, and they are alive despite having every reason not to be. Even after breaking the world, humanity has a chance to start again and find some measure of joy.

You mustn't run away.

You know what's the easiest way to recognize who is in the right and who is in the wrong in Rebuild?

Their justification. It was more balanced (or muddled) in original, but in Rebuild it's pretty obvious.

The bad guys do what they do for love. Gendo is evil not because he commits atrocities, but because he commits them to be reunited with the one person he believes can love him back. Fuyutsuki is friendzoned but shares the same sentiment.

Shinji fighting not for the sake of the world but to save Rei because he considered her somenone deserving a chance to be happy even at the cost of his life is also bad. Hell what Shinji did to Rei mimicked what Kaworu did for Shinji.

They are bad because doing things for a person you love/admire is unforgivably selfish.

Now look at Ritsuko. She is amoral scientist that first is in love with Gendo, but in the 14 year time skip she must have "grown up" and get over that pesky notion of love, and now can be with the good guy because now she is amoral scientist for the sake of the world.

So it's not WHAT they do and more WHO they do it for. Having that special person you can even die or become monster for is strictly evil in Evangelion.

Also that's why Shinji will be denied heroic sacrifice. Because dying like that is selfish, when he have should spend rest of his life repenting for his sins until he is an epmpty husk.

That's what Japanese corporate drones/productive members of society are.

Only once Shinji chooses the correct masters for himself (As in, the ones that doesn't act on personal desires and emotions) and follows their nstructions (because Shinji can never make the right call by himself) at the expense of whatever want and dreams he may had once, his character developement apparently will be complete. He will at last be worthy member of the world.

I hate to say it, but that is a message that I simply cannot get behind, at least not to the extreme degree that the film portrays.

Edited by LDragon2 on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:43:12 AM

That's a... really weird take, given the portrayal of SEELE as monstrous, amoral figures completely disconnected from humanity and the most positive moment in 3.0 being one girl telling another 'forget your boss, live for yourself'. I mean, hell, Rei is literally a mass-produced drone who exists only to serve, and is she happy with it?