>Start thread for MS Paint Adventures

You can be unbound from predetermination and still be convinced/manipulated/decide to go along with what would be anyway. Raziel had a lot of experience with that.

Did... it? Like, the quests seem pretty obviously a casualty of Homestuck abandoning the "normal" path of Sburb in favor of expanding the scope of the story ever outward. And the Ultimate Riddle being played up as a huge mystery by the game only for Karkat to nonchalantly explain it always felt like The Joke.

Homestuck did have a tendency towards that sort of joke

The problem is, with Jade dead the timeline that lead to Game Over could not be the Alpha Timeline. The Alpha Timeline is contingent on there being a Universe C, and that's contingent on them being able to access the Genesis Frog. It appears that Aranea's plan to Screw Destiny was actually successful until John retconned it so his friends could live.

Edited by RhymeBeat on Mar 12th 2021 at 11:28:38 AM

This is part of the reason I'm planning a fanfic about a guy who is fed up with Sburb and decides to just actively crusade against Paradox Space (granted, he was also spurred on by a book written by him in the future going backwards through time) because he believes Skaia is an inherently holy place being defiled by Paradox Space and Sburb.

The retcons being apparently causally prior to Lord English's existence when Lord English's existence is demonstrably causally prior to any of the retcons, when the retcons are shown to occur in a causal order and not all at once, is just the comic not making sense anymore. It is when I threw my hands in the air and admitted to everyone that I was wrong to think the retcons made sense (which is still absurd and awful, that the people saying it didn't make sense were right).

Regardless that doesn't mean English's existence is bound to "fate", it still arises from choices of Caliborn, John, Roxy, Dirk, etc., even if those choices always already happened before they logically should have.

Also John's power doesn't let him ignore causality. It lets him change what occurs, but the changes he makes still prppagate through causality. If John wants to make an effect happen, he still has to cause it; if he wanrs to prevent it, he has to negate its cause. Nothing about it changes causality, it changes *history.*

Game Over was a doomed timeline the whole time. It was never the Alpha timeline. 1. Calliope says it was doomed explicitly in story time, 2. everything goes wrong with mass death, like a doomed timeline, 3. John and Roxy literally leave it and replace other versions of themselves, when if John had just retconned the bad stuff from happening there wouldn't be an alternate John involved who dies, 4. It would make no sense if the Alpha timeline pre-retcon had no Calliope or Caliborn because we ready saw Lord English, Doc Scratch, Calliope and Caliborn in the comic pre-retcon.

The conversation that most made it clear Quests were important and in a way beyond SBURB Stuff was when Jaspersprite and Rose were talking. He says it was important, she says it's not abd things have gone off the rails with their game, he says he thinks it's still important to do for her herself and her growth. Not just him being a Sprite and pushing for the game, he explicitly says there's more although he doesn't entirely ubderstand since he's just a cat. This is foreshadowing that the Quests were not just game elements even if nobody ekse noticed it.

If you think Karkat was right about The Ultimate Answer I guess it makes sense you'd think it was resolved already but... I can't understand thinking he was? Does SBURB seem like a game that is trying to tell players "You are lawns whose whole lives and success or failure were always predetermined and out of your control, and nothing you do matters" to you? Because even if you think that is how Paradox Space works (which I don't, because the idea determinism precludes free will inherently is kind of stupid and outright contradicted in Homestuck) the game of SBURB is really stressing its players' agency and purpose and that they manner, in if anything an overly saccharine way. Thinking Karkat is right means thinking SBURB is a sick joke on purpose, which makes the ending where the players just kinda go along with it, again, terrible?

Yes, English's creation is due to John's decision. But John only did those things because of English's existence. And when I see a character try to prevent something, only to accidentally cause that thing, that tells me that the thing is pre-determined and nothing can be done to prevent it.

i really think you're missing the point of Rai's argument if that's your takeaway

given the cosmic rules the comic established earlier that should not have, nor could have, been the case

Please explain.

In slightly other news, I remember Hiveswap Act 1 having a line saying that Trizza demanded that every single troll on Alternia follow her on Chittr. She has 1 billion followers according to the game, so that's probably what Alternia's population is, unless there are extremely rural Alternians who don't have internet. That makes sense, given that Alternians all live alone and therefore need way more space compared to humans who often fit families in the same space one hive sits.

Actually, that brings me to hives—for how extremely regimented troll culture is, it's weird to me that every single troll has an absolutely massive hive. Xefros' hive is nearly the size of my family's old home and that was a three-bedroom house meant to hold like 5-6 people. It doesn't even look run-down or dirty, the top floor in particular has sparkly clean floors and walls. If anything, you'd expect rustbloods and bronze-bloods to crammed into filthy, run-down communal apartment buildings, while the lower classes actually get their own homes (similar to how the train cars work going by Hiveswap Act 2). Maybe highbloods get even larger places, but I honestly cannot imagine what the hell they'd even do with them (in real-life aristocrats/nobility/royalty would have large places not just to flaunt their wealth but to house their large families, something completely foreign to trolls) and if the original comic is any indication (it's not the best for what Alternia looks like given how every character is a fucked-up outcast living in the boonies) the highblood hives don't look that much bigger.

Two of my fantrolls live in the same hive (one doesn't even have a hive or a lusus) and they don't even have to worry about running out of space according to Hiveswap. They each have practically an entire house to themselves.

Speaking of, can trolls move? The fantroll mentioned right above moved from the blueblood areas to the rustblood areas of...whatever troll-equivalent-of-a-settlement he lived in because he's a Defector from Decadence. Karkat says he wants Terezi to move into a "real" hive so that seems to be the case.

EDIT: Okay apparently Sollux lived in what is clearly supposed to be an apartment building (a "communal hive stem") but there's basically no information otherwise. Dammit. Does Alternia have apartments or not!?

Edited by Vadara on Mar 12th 2021 at 6:42:26 AM

Okay, this will be a bit of a doozy.

You're just wrong here. You are outright wrong. Because trying to prevent something, and in so doing causing that something, doesn't mean that thing is pre-determined. Why? Because this is something that happens in real life, with no time travel or predestination. It is totally, mundanely possible to try to do something and accidentally do the opposite of what you meant. Does that imply predetermination? Since we can explain that without any outside fate, through the fact intention doesn't perfectly translate to desired results, we can apply that same exact explanation to a scenario with time travel involved. John attempts to prevent Caliborn from becoming Lord English, and this leads to Caliborn becoming Lord English. That's a normal, mundane oopsie. The fact that John's actions accomplished the opposite of their intention is irrelevant to whether this was predetermined.

Now, what I think Bleye was getting at: the idea that John's actions caused Lord English to exist in the first place doesn't make sense. The fact it is apparently true is a plot hole in the comic. We see that the retcons occur in a sequence; while they aren't a perfectly linear sequence (that time Jade and Dave have a conversation, then by retcon John interferes in their conversation, then by later retcon John interferes with his own interference and sends his earlier self after Roxy) but this does still occur in a sequence. And the start of the sequence is John sticking his arm in the Boon and sending it everywhere on accident. Because these panels were literally retconned, and we can see what they looked like prior to the retcon, we can see that there was a state of Paradox Space which existed prior to that retcon. We know this for a fact. And, we know that this prior state must have had Lord English in it, because it had Earth and Alternia and the Kids' and Trolls' Sessions and Doc Scratch and so many other things that just would not exist if Lord English did not exist. Ergo, Lord English must exist in the state of Paradox Space that is causally prior to the arms retcon. Lord English is "causally prior" to the arms; he has to be, or the comic doesn't make sense. And I don't mean that otherwise there'd be a time paradox, I don't mean some break of causality that John just has the power to ignore (even though his power isn't ignoring causality at all), I mean something fundamental. It would mean that Lord English both did and did not exist in the state of Paradox Space that existed before the first retcon, and thus which can't have its nonsense explained by "Retcons don't care about causality" because it is before the retcons. And again, we know a state of Paradox Space existing before the retcons, because we saw it, and can still see it if we look at the unretconned image files. And this idea that Lord English does and does not exist is paradoxical, in the real sense, where it doesn't mean the universe is at risk of exploding until the Doctor undoes whatever change; it's the sense where logic is fundamentally wrong and our entire means of making sense of anything at all is illusory. In the old retcon arguments, I think people blew off the idea of causality being violated, and I think that's because I did a bad job of explaining just what I meant. The idea of Lord English existing and not existing at the same time is genuinely nonsensical, it is incomprehensible, so either the story cannot be understood at all, or we are forced to conclude through necessary logical implication: Lord English existed in the pre-retcon state of Paradox Space.

This state of Paradox Space was then altered by the arms retcon. We then see that all other retcons happen in sequence after this one, because we watch that happen. Each retcon progressively alters the state of Paradox Space, and these alterations are cumulative (when one doesn't retroactively preclude another, see the conversation loop). And then the Masterpiece retcon occurs, and seemingly was necessary for Lord English to exist. There are two possibiities. The first is that had that retcon not happened, Caliborn would have turned into Lord English anyways somehow, and so that retcon happens in the final causal state in the sequence that we see, and just isn't per se what caused Caliborn to become Lord English, just something that affected exactly how he became so in the final retcon state. This makes perfect sense, except it's never indicated to be the case and would require significant contrivance. The second is that the retcon was necessary for Caliborn to become Lord English, and since Caliborn did become Lord English in the state of Paradox Space causally prior to the arms retcon, this retcon occurred out of sequence and happened before the arms retcon. This just breaks how the retcons are shown to work, and doesn't really make sense as a way for them to work. This isn't as bad a level of nonsense as the idea that Lord English somehow didn't exist prior to the arms retcon, but it's still a plot hole.

So I think that's what Bleye was talking about squared away. But let's shelf the fact this doesn't make sense, let's go with the second one and assume there's some way to plug the plot hole. So John freely chooses actions that lead him to cause Caliborn to become Lord English accidentally, and the fact this occurs itself leads to the fact that John even exists in the first place. You think this demonstrates that this event was "pre-determined", and that it could never have been prevented, and that it was thus caused by "fate".

You're fundamentally wrong in how you think about causality in the kind of universe that Paradox Space is. I am going to try and show why.

First, the idea that nothing could have been done to prevent it is just wrong. Rather, that isn't actually implied by the facts. Yes, if Lord English hadn't existed, John wouldn't exist either, but this doesn't mean that nothing could have been done to prevent Lord English from existing. It just means nothing was done that would have prevented that. It's like how we can't change the past. Nothing we can do now, nothing we can possibly do, can change that this discussion has already started. And sure, we could explain that by the idea that this conversation could never have been prevented. But we don't need predetermination to decide this. We just need determination. The conversation wasn't prevented, and so it occurred. No fate enters into it, just our choices, and we get an unalterable result, as whether our path through possible futures is a road or a branching tree, it's a path we progress along.

But now you can go and point something out, that John causes Lord English causes John causes Lord English, on and on, of course. But again, nothing about that requires predetermination, only determination. These things cause each other and are caused by each other, which could be explained by predetermination, or by a determination that "happens all at once", so to speak. Nobody said that causal paths in Paradox Space are lines; in fact, ignoring the retcons, they all seem to be loops. But the thing is that a causal loop is a funny thing. Its shape isn't an oval, like you might expect. Its shape is a point.

John can't exist if Lord English doesn't exist, so John's existence can't be causally "prior" to Lord English's; Lord English can't exist if John doesn't exist, so Lord English's existence can't be causally "prior" to John's. Since neither can happen before or after the other, it must necessarily follow that they occur at once. Homestuck already supports this notion, with the idea of "circumstantial simultaneity".

So since all these loops overlap and intersect, when we close each loop into a point, it drags in the other loops and eventually every loop closes into one singular point. Every event in Paradox Space, or rather every event in a certain retcon state of Paradox Space, happens at once (from a causal perspective, not a temporal perspective).

We can thus explain the loop, and in fact every loop, with no predetermination. Just regular determination. Sure, it's a weird form of determination from our perspective, because it doesn't progress linearly with time; but causality in Paradox Space doesn't progress linearly with respect to time. In our universe, causality seems to follow time's arrow, but it doesn't in Paradox Space; the only arrow causality has, there, is the sequence of retcon states. But even when examining the sequence of retcon states, we can see every event has a cause somewhere else in its retcon state or a retcon introduced by John, and every cause has an effect that follows from that cause. It's all already accounted for. "Fate" can't be the cause of any events, because there's no causes left unaccounted for it to be.

Now, you can say, there's an issue here. Sure, all the causes are accounted for, but only within the loops. But those loops themselves must have some cause, right? Some reason they exist, as opposed to a less complicated system? Well, Homestuck makes some motions that even the loops themselves are caused by those things within the loops, that they all arise from the will and ability of the people within them. But you can still ask why that's the case.

And yes, ascribing this to "fate" is consistent and coherent. It's also totally unsupported by the story. Fate can only fit into this on a level that is outside what the story shows, so the only reason you think "fate" is a likely explanation is your own philosophical ideas. You are porting your own incompatibilist inclinations into the comic's ontology, when that ontology is clearly compatibilistic. That's just silly.

You don't need to explain that with fate. You don't need to explain it at all. Or you can be content with that it's self-caused, or you could imagine it's caused by some metaphysics, gods or God, a Mega-Skaia, the Even-Horribler-Terrors, or just Andrew Hussie. But then you have to explain that, and again have total freedom with which to do it. You get an infinite regress, because it is literally just an isomorphism of "Why is there something, rather than nothing?" which is a question that can never ever be fully answered.

We only need to bring in fate or predetermination or anything like that in some will-denying way if we want to. But answering this kind of totally open question with an answer you don't like seems absurd to me?

It is totally, mundanely possible to try to do something and accidentally do the opposite of what you meant. Does that imply predetermination?

Not in the world, because real life isn't run by an author who can set up certain events in order to hammer in his message about how his fictional universe works. Which is what I think happened here.

Also, I find the "predetermination" vs "two events that cause each other" to be a distinction without a difference.

Also also, please stop writing five-thousabd word essays as your comments. It's getting real painful to read them.

If you don't want to read what I have to say you don't have to? And if it is painful to read them than you really shouldn't, your comfort is more important than forum arguments.

I'm not writing at length because I want to drown out all opposition to what I'm saying through sheer volume. I just am trying to explain things in a complete, coherent fashion. Brevity is not my strong suit.

But I'm not going to write short arguments that don't work properly because I can't convey what I mean. I'd rather write nothing than write something I don't think is up to snuff. And if anyone else would rather I write nothing than that I write super long things giving my points then they're welcome to not read such. Like, genuinely, this isn't me being snide, people have every right to ignore me if they'd rather and that's fine.

If you think that Hussie is hammering home how he thinks his fictional reality works and think that reality is one in which free will is illusory and constrained by an outside fate than I am being entirely honest but you're letting your own preconceptions color things way too strongly. Because it seems clear to me and others I've talked to that everything the comic says on the matter pushes against that interpretation. It just feels like one you're bringing to the table? Oh well.

I don't really have a problem with Rai's unusual verboseness, considering that I think she's arguing something pretty interesting. Then again, I'm a windbag myself so it'd be pretty hypocritical of me to call her out.

Rai, I don't mind if you continue, for whatever's that worth. Maybe, for the sake of convivence, you can cut the paragraphs into separate folders?

you could explain the retcons with the arms just retconned them into the already doomed timelines, and john following terezi's plan to get things set in the actual alpha timeline was always how lord english was gonna be around.

I don't think every comic panel with an arm in it was actually swapped out for a doomed timeline equivalent of that panel, in the narrative that was still mostly following the alpha timeline. And were there even doomed timeline versions of Earth? I feel like it was mostly Sessions that split; no Jade entered from a doomed timeline Earth into the timeline where John died and Davesprite came from.

Also, I think I have an extra point I can make relatively shortly.

There is a difference. Imagine two events A and B. We're going to arrange them in causal order. Say event B is predetermined by A; this means A, which is external to B, determines how B will happen before B actually happens. Thus A must happen before B. Note here that "before" is with respect to causal order, not to temporal order.

Now imagine two events A and B that cause each other. Since A is a cause of B, the latest A can possibly happen is as B happens. Since B is a cause of A, the latest B can possibly happen is as A happens. (This is by definition.) Thus, they happen simultaneously, causally speaking. So when A happens it can't predetermine how B happens, because B is already being determined simultaneously. There's no room for it to be determined in advance, or for B to do so for A. There's no pre-.

Thus not only are these separate conditions, but they are mutually exclusive.

Edited by RaichuKFM on Mar 12th 2021 at 1:04:00 PM

Hmm. Admittedly, "predeterminism" is not the 100% correct choice of words, but the point I was trying to get across is that the event in question was set in stone, with no way to change it.

For the most part, I was just massively disappointed that the comic made a big deal over how John was now able to change history, only for him to fail when he tried to do it in a big way.

Ah, yeah. The retcons did get kinda wasted, as just a way of writing things out of the corner that was [S] GAME OVER. and bringing Vriska back to solve everything for everyone instead.

I always unsecretly suspected bringing back Vriska was a mistake

I would have had it that the Game Over timeline was the alpha timeline that led to English’s creation. That would probably go with the Screw Destiny themes better. The only problem is how.

I think a bad ending for the original Alpha Timeline that would have worked as something the retcons could fix would be a Condy Wins ending? The Game would still be "won", a new universe made, Earth brought in, all the loops closed, but it'd be obviously and majorly terrible.

The future of the human race is a boot arguing Vriskourse with a face, forever.

Ew a boot with a face, what is this the mushroom kingdom?

Vriska is awful, but she did actually keep everyone organized enough to beat the bad dudes.

but yeah she crippled Tavros, treated him like shit, murdered him, and then fused him in a sprite with a cat when he's allergic to cats and also left her dead self to be miserable and alone forever. I have no idea why the fandom acts like there's any ambiguity with her. She is objectively an awful person, she just also did legitimately good and heroic things.

yes I know I'm opening a can of worms people are tired of being opened, but hey I finished the comic like two days ago so there ya go. It never ends.

Side note: I thought she looked pretty good with the braids.

Edited by Vadara on Mar 13th 2021 at 8:01:25 AM

Yeah, the thing is that the fact Vriska kept everyone organized to beat the bad dudes is part of the problem? It doesn't really make sense?

Why was Vriska in charge? Where did she get her information that, say, Spades Slick was coming to the session? Why did she think they would have to fight Slick and why was she right? Why was her plan which featured no way of actually killing Condy despite her immortality successful? Why was every social problem on the Meteor solved by Vriska being an attention-hogging bully when previously her tough love methods were accurately portrayed as causing more problems than they solved? Why did everyone just accept Vriska brought Tavros back to life as an apology for murdering him and then not care when she explicitly admits she only did it to neutralize a potential threat in GCAT?

Essentially, why does Vriska get to act like she learned her lessons and can make up for what she did now by being a hero, when she obviously didn't learn any lessons at all, is still just her old self-important center-of-everything has to be the hero with stupid plans that would get everyone killed, and runs off to face the enemy one-on-one in a confrontation she can't win, just like when she was going to go after Bec Noir, except it works?

Edited by RaichuKFM on Mar 13th 2021 at 11:48:09 AM