The Culture

So after hearing recommendations for the series I decided to read 'Matter' courtesy of my badass library.

I think the most recent space opera I've read was...Oh...Ring World? Yeah, I haven't read much recent stuff for lack of recommendations.

That much said...I'm not even 1/5th of the way through the book.

And my mind's status?

BLOWN.

I loathe the Culture. Everything about TNG's Federation dialed up to 11.

edited 22nd Oct '09 11:31:29 PM by Nobodymuch

But does the Federation get fingernail lasers?

I really like the series, mainly because of all of the unusual ideas and Banks' writing style, especially his sense of humor.

As for similarities to Star Trek, I think they are there, but aren't The Culture supposed to be like the opposite? (Except for the break away Elenech) They don't follow a Prime Directive at all and I think/hope this is supposed to be morally ambiguous.

The Federation doesn't follow a Prime Directive either. The PD was only ever there to be broken in the first place.

Matter was the first Culture novel I finished (though not technically the first I encountered). It's a nontraditional intro to the series, since it's relatively new, but it worked out for me.

Matter certainly has some awesome scenes, particularly toward the beginning and end of the book. (Don't miss the epilogue after the glossary, btw.)

Many have complained that the middle drags on a bit, though. I personally tried to get through the medieval-Shellworld scenes as quickly as I dared, and in the end, I daresay you could skip those scenes altogether and not lose the plot. The final sequence rewards all that anticipation, if perhaps leaving you wishing for more. (Epilogue helps a bit. Also, keep an eye out for someone planting a mindstate backup of themself.)

As for the rest of the novels...

Consider Phlebas is the progenitor of the Culture series. Chronologically first, so naturally a suggested intro, but it's significantly different perspective from the other novels and arguably relative lack of refinement lead some to suggest T Po G instead. Definitely worth reading if you're into the series, though.

The Player of Games is a fun, satisfying adventure. Good intro to the series, though it's chronologically second.

Use of Weapons is exciting, dark, and will blow your mind (if you manged to avoid spoilers, like I did). Good action, unconventional but very manageable format (one storyline runs backward).

The State of the Art novella (part of the collection by the same name) is nice. Worth reading if you have the time. Of the short stories included, I only read the two concerning the Culture (A Gift from the Culture and Descendant). They're all right; incidentally a film based on A Gift from the Culture is under consideration, though it's unclear how they'll squeeze enough plot out of it.

Excession is fun if you like Culture Minds and space opera, though some feel it isn't as strong literary-wise as the others. Don't know about that; I like it myself.

Inversions... it's sort of a spoiler to even mention it as a Culture novel, since Banks is very coy about its status, but how else would we interest you in it, eh? If you do know that the Culture is involved, half the fun is scanning for clues that'll tip the reader off. Basically about a subtle Culture intervention from the natives' perspective. Check the Wikipedia entry for the original preface, if your copy doesn't have it.

Look to Windward has a good plot, and some wonderful twists. Not my favorite, but I did enjoy it. Though the series can be read in any order you like, you may want to read Consider Phlebas before Lt W.

Also consider Banks's non-Culture works, both SF and mainstream. I've read and enjoyed The Algebraist (SF) and Whit (mainstream). His mainstream novels lack the "M." initial. His other mainstream works are pretty well-regarded, at least in the UK. Against a Dark Background (SF) is also often recommended, though I haven't read it myself yet. His newest novel is Transition, which is published w/M as SF in the US but without M as mainstream in the UK.

And that ends my blathering on the subject. Enjoy the books!

edited 14th Nov '09 1:13:11 AM by Mysterius

Necrooooooo!

I've read the first three, been itching to get the rest.

Use of Weapons was totally fucking mindblowing. For the first half I was kind of annoyed at the structure and didn't really see where it was going, but then it got really awesome really fast. Hell, how many times in your life do you get to read a book about a guy who has chair-a-phobia? (besides, you know, Narnia . . .)

I really need to get around to reading some of these. Especially since I named my computer after a ship from the series.

Banks has been an influence on my own writing.

Fans of twisted should really read The Wasp Factory, his first published novel. You'll either love it or hate it. The copy I gleefully proclaimed that status, quoting both good and bad reviews on its back cover (and inside).

Necroing this thread. I found out that the new book in the series is out. Has anyone started reading it?

Edit- I found out about the cool twist in the book that hearkens back to Use of Weapons.

edited 21st Oct '10 7:32:39 PM by Jordan

I couldn't get into the Culture novels. I read two of them (Consider Phlebas and Player of Games) before I gave up. There was just something about them that was... nihilistic, almost? I got the sense that nothing about anything in any of it really mattered, in the end. I'm not even sure if it was deliberate on the part of the author, or just a side effect of how very Mary Suetopia the Culture itself is on top of being at least a solid Type 2 on the Kardashev Scale. The Culture could seriously just blow up all their problems if they felt like it, so all that really matters is their citizen's personal lives — but they seem to delight in destroying their special agent's lives in order to avoid having to blow up people. Which is noble on an abstract level, I suppose, but is extremely unsatisfying to read about.

It's weird, while I like the series, I agree with that almost completely. While so many things are cool about the society, Special Circumstances is really ruthless, and I have to say that I can't think of all that many Culture characters who were very nice people.

So, I think/hope the nihilistic part is deliberate. But I do think it's kind of missing the point to wonder why they don't just nuke everybody. Most of the time, the Culture seems like it could probably wipe out everyone else if it was so inclined, so that does lessen dramatic tension- but, it makes sense that they don't do that- there long term goal is about spreading freedom, and you don't just kill people you want to influence.

edited 12th Nov '10 12:09:13 PM by Jordan

"The Culture could seriously just blow up all their problems if they felt like it"

No they couldn't. I'm not sure exactly what's going on with the Dra'azon, but the Morthanveld could almost certainly take the Culture on numbers alone.

Anyway, I'm a big fan, albeit a fairly recent one, read all of them bar Surface Detail (waiting for paperback). (Hopefully) spoiler-free reviews follow:

Consider Phlebas was pretty good, but I did have a couple of issues; one was that a certain chapter (you know which one, if you've read it) was totally unnecessary and downright distressing, the other was that the ending seemed to be a little bit too contrived for my liking.

The Player of Games corrects both of these issues, and as a result, I think it's a better novel, and one of the best in the series. It's also a fairly straightforward read, which helps.

Use of Weapons was a bit over-complicated by my reckoning, although it might just be that I need to read it again. It wasn't that I couldn't keep track of how things were going; it was more that, whilst I could understand both storylines whilst reading them, I can barely remember what the overall plot was a few months after the fact.

The three Culture stories in The State of the Art are a bit of a mixed bag. "A Gift from the Culture" is apparently being made into a film, although I can't see why, as there's just not enough there for one. "Descendant" is decent enough, but weirdly slow-moving for a short story. The title story is actually pretty strong, and Banks was right to make it a novella rather than a full-blown novel.

Excession is my personal favourite - and actually, to continue my answer above, the titular object - or perhaps the people who built it - is another thing that could probably nail the Culture. Anyway, multiple storylines that don't get confusing, an interesting mix of characters and, like Player of Games, an ending that suggests the Culture are properly badass rather than people who just win all the time (and depending on how you define winning, they don't, necessarily, sort-of).

Inversions is an interesting sidetrack, but if there's a flaw in it, it's that I don't really get the feeling that there's a great deal of consequence to it. What did the Culture get out of it, for example?

Look to Windward is probably my third favourite of the series, which suggests that there's a Star Trek style even-installments-win pattern going on here. Anyway, I liked the worldbuilding angle that it took.

Matter seemed to be overlong - there could've been cuts to it in parts - and it slightly worries me to see that Surface Detail seems to be a similar length. It was by no means bad, but it did in 570 pages what other books in the series did in 350-400.

I think it's a mistake to assume that we're supposed to sympathise with the Culture as a civilisation. They're really more of a force of nature, shaping the setting which our protagonists inhabit whilst they struggle to make sense of it all and get out sane and in one piece. Except in Excession, of course, where someone did it to them. Accidentally.

Banks has said he'd like to live in the Culture. I think most of us would. Doesn't mean we have to agree with it on foreign-policy matters.

edited 21st Nov '10 6:10:09 PM by Iaculus

Regarding Phlebas do you mean the cannibalism scene?

I confess I have a strong negative opinion of the Culture books. The setting seems to function more as a delivery system for Aesops than as a work of serious worldbuilding, and far too many of the characters seem to exist as walking plot devices. Banks also has a tendency to write in sudden and badly telegraphed changes in tone, usually when he's got a point he wants to make or when there hasn't been an atrocity in the last dozen pages.

edited 22nd Nov '10 5:22:10 PM by Nornagest

Yes, although I was also aiming against spoilers. Although I guess everyone's read it anyway, so slightly pointlessly aiming anyhow.

As for , I always thought the flaw in Banks' worldbuilding was more that stuff largely appears without prior warning in other books. It's not a huge issue for me, but I do wonder exactly why Airspheres and Shellworlds were things we didn't know about before the last two books.

edited 24th Nov '10 5:09:18 AM by CtraK

Haven't read the latest, but since there aren't supposed to be that many Shellworlds, it's not surprising they didn't show up in the previous novels. Besides, time passes between each one — it's possible the Culture itself is discovering stuff.

Generally, also, I expect that such will happen as a series progresses. It's kind of a given. All that bugs me really is if an author introduces stuff that actually breaks the previous books.

That said, I always felt Against A Dark Background is better worldbuilding than the Culture is.

edited 25th Nov '10 2:26:09 AM by Morven

I suspect that the choice of one's first book matters a great deal. (Of course, I am also a prat when it comes to well-written but philosophically incompatible books.) I'm told that Consider Phlebas, the first book, stars an enemy of this galaxy-spanning, super-developed utopia, which is precisely the right way to introduce a land of milk and honey. I read the second book, The Player of Games, and it just seemed like the author droning on and on about how marvellous his creation is. Seen from this perspective, the climax was incredibly anvilicious.

edited 25th Nov '10 10:09:34 AM by Kizor

"Haven't read the latest, but since there aren't supposed to be that many Shellworlds, it's not surprising they didn't show up in the previous novels. Besides, time passes between each one — it's possible the Culture itself is discovering stuff."

True, but other stuff seems to disappear as well. The Idirans, the Affront and the Chelgrians have seemed oddly quiet since their first respective appearances.

Incidentally, I came across one interview in which Banks was met with a question about why the Referers from Consider Phlebas were referenced in The Player of Games and then myteriously never talked about again. He basically admitted that he wasn't that fond of the idea and suggested that the Minds had been upgraded since the War. Good save.

It's not an issue that bothers me immensely, it's just a feeling that it could be a more integrated universe.

I suspect the Idirans were smashed to the point of no longer mattering on the galactic stage. The war was costly enough for the Culture, which was bigger & had more resources; it was likely disastrous for the Idirans.

As for Player of Games, I think it's worth keeping in mind that Banks is writing in close third-person and the values conveyed are those of his protagonist, who's a fairly regular Culture citizen, not one intimately familiar with its flaws or its conflicts. Its tone reflects the viewpoint character's belief in his own civilization, I think, rather than Banks', completely.

edited 26th Nov '10 3:37:23 PM by Morven