I see the Awesomeness.
It should be over in Trope Repair. A mod will move it as soon as one of them spots the thread.
Fight smart, not fair.
Are you sure that this is a common problem?
To me, it looks like it has a healthy number of wicks, especially when compared to it's huge off-wiki popularity.
Compare to Tsundere, that has a similar amount of inbounds, but 2861 wicks.
edited 9th Sep '10 8:14:24 AM by EternalSeptember
likes the cheeses.
It may just need some example pruning. If you come across an example that really doesn't fit, feel free to remove it (just be sure to explain why in the edit reason.)
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
I see the Awesomeness.
Stm is requesting an example cleanup.
Fight smart, not fair.
Yeah, I meant it needs an example cleanup in its main page. I had a brain fart creating the topic this morning.
likes the cheeses.
Ah, apologies, I thought you were requesting a definition re-write.
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Anyway, I could go through the examples with a hatchet, and move them to the discussion page of Manic Pixie Dream Girl. That editing might be seen as being like page vandalism though. Any suggestions on how to proceed?
Just do it exactly how you described. Put a polite edit reason that lets readers know to see the discussion for details, and copy and paste all the deleted entries in a message over there, in case any of them can be salvaged. As long as the deleted entries are saved for discussion and you're being respectful, I don't think anyone will take it as vandalism.
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.ManicPixieDreamGirl
I deleted a few examples to the discussion page. Maybe someone can look at the Anime section — I don't know those examples. And, restore examples that just have to be put back in.
Should being a Manic Pixie Dream Girl have certain criteria? One of the examples I deleted was of a subversion... i.e. someone who is a normal woman.
She must be:
- Manic & wacky
- Beautiful
- Love interest
- A plot device for the stick in the mud protagonist.
The precise definition of Manic Pixie Dream Girl is something I feel strongly about, as this particular trope was a life-changer and what brought me to TV Tropes in the first place.
If you go by the original definition as put forward in the Onion AV Club article which originated the MPDG theory, the key defining criterion for a Manic Pixie Dream Girl is that she is a female character created by a male author without any real interior life the creator bothers developing or exploring, who exists solely so the male protagonist besotted with her can learn valuable life lessons.
A female character can be a dreamgirl or a love interest as quirky, beautiful, poignant or idealised as you like, but unless she fits the above then she is not in fact a Manic Pixie Dreamgirl.
Which slashes the list of examples by about half.
I'm not going to man the chainsaw though, as I'm quite new to TV Tropes and whilst I'm prepared to add examples to lists and nominate new tropes (see 'The Lost Lenore' in YKTTW: she's beloved! and dead!) I'm not going to start messing with other people's work yet.
edited 14th Sep '10 5:43:09 PM by raisingirl83
But that definition is extremely judgmental about the story, the writing and the author's intentions. It's exactly what led to the natterfest on that page about how this and that female character is a 'subversion' because she has something, anything going on in her life besides the male lead. The widespread character trope of "quirky Genki Girl who barrels through an average guy's boring life and sweeps him off into romantic adventure" can be described without an undercurrent of sexism accustations toward the authors (both male and female) who write them.
edited 14th Sep '10 6:16:29 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
@Brit Bllt: It's the definition as originally put.
If hearing people talk disparagingly about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope pushes buttons for you, see Tropes Are Tools (IMHO one of the most useful pages on this entire website, I know I needed it).
Natalie Portman's character in Garden State is a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. That doesn't mean that Zach Braff is a bad writer or that Garden State is a bad movie, or that someone who liked Natalie Portman's character, or just likes Manic Pixie Dream Girls in general is a bad person.
edited 14th Sep '10 6:27:41 PM by raisingirl83
You're the one talking about how you "feel strongly about this" and it was a "life changer". Yes, tropes are tools, so let's separate the trope from the Onion writer's opinion of the trope...
is a female character created by a male author without any real interior life the creator bothers developing or exploring, who exists solely so the male protagonist besotted with her can learn valuable life lessons.
So tell me, should Libba Bray's Going Bovine be removed because the author is a woman? Should Haruhi Suzumiya be removed because the story focuses too much on Haruhi's interior life? Does Amelie not count because she has a life outside the male lead?
Let's take Starfire from Teen Titans. If ever there was a bubbly, quirky manic dream girl to drag soulful, brooding Robin out of his shell, she's it. But we also see lots of extra stuff about her backstory and she has a personality that extends beyond Robin. So we can't address the accurate MPGD dynamic she has with Robin because she plays other roles in the story? I guess not, since she's not listed on the page... probably because someone stuck to this "she's too three-dimensional to count" rule and nuked her entry.
In short, are you really going to nuke trope examples because the character is too well developed, or because the author isn't the right gender? Those are arbitrary distinctions. Tropes Are Tools. You don't say that a trope doesn't count because it's too well written, or because the author doesn't fit the profile.
Sure, The Onion described the trope, along with a lot of snark about it, because snark is what The Onion is all about. That doesn't mean we have to keep the snark and negativity just because we borrowed the phrase. They described and opined on the motives behind a trope. We only want to describe it.
edited 14th Sep '10 6:45:52 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
It's the original definition of the trope.
If the character has a developed backstory and interior life and/or serves other narrative functions in the plot she's not a Manic Pixie Dream Girl.
And like I said, I am so not going to embark on removing/re-categorising/editing trope examples or definitions. Not my place.
edited 14th Sep '10 6:51:19 PM by raisingirl83
No, it's the Onion's opinion of the trope, which they gave in the same sentence as they described it. If someone wrote an article that said "White Haired Pretty Boys are what happens when stupid Ho Yay writers think the epitome of beauty is a brainless, silver-haired ponce", and the trope borrowed the name "white haired pretty boy" from that article, would it really have to keep "brainless ponce written by stupid Ho Yay writers" as requirements?
And if this is the negative, "the girl can't have any personality because she's a tool" version of a cheerful Genki Girl drawing the staid guy out of his shell trope, then what trope describes the examples that fit that situation except they weren't written by men and/or the girl has too much development? And, if such a neutral version of the trope exists, then why bother with this one at all if it's just The Same But More negative?
edited 14th Sep '10 7:05:05 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
The journo who wrote the Onion article coined the phrase so I'm happy to consider that as the original definition, and characters who are quirky, beautiful, adorable, inspirational, and have developed backstory and interior life and do more in the story than be a means by which a protagonist who falls in love with them learns valuable life lessons *gasps for breath, too many commas* to be kind of like the Manic Pixie Dream Girl but not quite the same.
Amelie in, er, Amelie is one of my favourite movie characters ever but she's not a Manic Pixie Dream Girl as she's the protagonist of the story.
An analogy using the White Haired Pretty Boys trope doesn't quite fit as White Haired Pretty Boys is the trope and "what happens when stupid Ho Yay writers think the epitome of beauty is a brainless, silver-haired ponce" is a storyteller's personal application of the trope.
I'm so not trying to pick a fight here. I'm happy to agree to disagree.
Just because they coined the phrase doesn't mean we have to hold to every last statement they made about it. White-Haired Pretty Boy actually did start off as an insulting, dismissive slang term about certain anime characters. We used the name since it's an existing term, but we didn't keep the insulting and dismissive insinuations because that's not part of the trope.
to be kind of like the Manic Pixie Dream Girl but not quite the sameAnd that's the problem. We can't have two tropes that are identical except one has good writing and the other has bad writing. We either keep MPDG and let the "she can't have any character development" thing go, or we switch the name to something neutral enough for both uses. Personally, I think it's a nicely descriptive phrase, regardless of it originally being a Take That! at the archetype, and would hate to see it go.
edited 14th Sep '10 7:17:05 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
But the MPDG not having backstory and interior life that the creator chooses to develop and/or explore is part of the criteria for a character to fit the trope. And maybe I'm alone in this but I personally don't think that if a story has a MPDG in it that automatically means that it's a bad story by a bad creator. Lots of great creators and great stories have characters who fit this trope.
A character like you're talking about is definitely different to a Manic Pixie Dream Girl and if a new page were created (I'm quailing with horror on behalf of editors at the thought of the work involved though) then the two would definitely need to be cross-referenced. No idea what you'd call it though. 'Not A Manic Pixie Dream Girl'? Oh lord.
edited 14th Sep '10 7:21:39 PM by raisingirl83
Lost in Space
Before this argument gets out of hand, let me remind everyone that there's no rule that says the "original" definition of a term is God and cannot change, no matter who the source is. Tropes Are Tools, yes, but a trope that more or less defines its examples as Bad Writing is a guaranteed Natter-magnet and either gets marked Subjective or rewritten to be more neutral. Tropes also evolve beyond their creator's intent. We see that all the time in this very forum.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
^^ But that's the subjective part. How many stories really have a character with no backstory at all, and with her only interaction being with the guy and about the guy? Even I Dream Of Jeannie and Bewitched give their heroines more of a life than that, if only because story logistics demand that she come from somewhere and have something to do when the guy's not around. So, since most stories will, just by necessity, have at least a minimal background and personality for the female character beyond "love interest", how much is enough? What's the dividing line between "she's obviously a two dimensional love interest" and "she's her own character who just happens to be giddy, imaginative and enthusiastically in love with the hero"? How much character development is enough? That's where it turns into a subjective, quality-based argument. Fans of the story will say that she's a well-rounded, engaging character, while the haters will say that she's a petty wish-fulfillment character. All having two tropes that amount to "MPGD" and "MPGD except well written" would do is spark massive edit wars on who goes where.
Edit: Ninja'd!
edited 14th Sep '10 7:29:55 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
@Fighteer, Brit Bllt: Oh god, I wasn't trying to pick a fight, please don't submit me for banning or whatever disciplinary action happens here. Like I said, this is going to be a very YMMV sorta trope and I have no intention of touching the Manic Pixie Dream Girl page.
Edited to add: what does Ninja'd mean? Does that mean I've been flagged for banning? I like to think I don't look like a troll or exhibit trollish qualities.
edited 14th Sep '10 7:33:36 PM by raisingirl83
Oh, no, sorry! Ninja'd just means someone else (Fighteer) snuck in like a ninja and posted another message while I was typing my response to you, so I was clearing up who my response was meant for. 
You're not in trouble or anything (I mean, I'm not a mod, but I'm pretty positive you're NOT in trouble!), and you've been absolutely fine and respectful the whole time. It's just a very energetic conversation about the trope definition, that's all. 
Your points about an MPGD's shallowness did get me thinking, though. We have a trope describing that sort of character called Shallow Love Interest, and the Manic Pixie Dream Girl description could be given a line or two pointing out how such a character can turn into a Shallow Love Interest if not handled carefully. That way the negative aspects of the trope are noted, but the positive examples aren't left out in the cold.
Edit: I'll go ahead and add it. Let me know what you think!
edited 14th Sep '10 7:59:28 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
(Double post go squish.)
edited 14th Sep '10 7:49:37 PM by BritBllt
"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
@Brit Bllt: That's what I was trying to remember the name of, Shallow Love Interest. I agree it's a related trope to the Manic Pixie Dream Girl.
Like I say, I don't consider the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope as I understand it to be a bad thing or a demonstration of bad writing. I have no time for people who sneer at storytellers who use the MPDG trope at all or profess contempt for the MPDG archetype herself, because there can be all sorts of reasons a storyteller wants to incorporate a character who serves this function in a narrative.
Okay, yes, she can crop up in stories by writers who may be a bit inexperienced in the character-development department, and it tends to be obvious when she's clearly a wish-fulfillment exercise on the part of a storyteller whose protagonist is their Author Avatar. But even in these cases, so what? Applying the MPDG in that way may be bad writing, but it doesn't mean that using her at all is bad writing.
Unless it's been edited in the last hour or so, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl page acknowledges the origins of the term and describes it fairly. YMMV depending on how well some of the examples fit the trope, that's all.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManicPixieDreamGirl
I'm not sure if this should go into the Trope Repair shop, but people have been shoehorning every character in the tropeverse into the wicks for this page from the Mad Hatter to the Biblical Eve.
Some just don't fit, and I could remove them, but maybe the trope description at the top needs a better, more descriptive explanation of what a Manic Pixie Dream Girl is and is not.