During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Hitler 3
Handsome Head of Hyperion
to Addie
I saw that there might be a need for a new Criminal Minds image. I am not sure how good either are, but these are the only two that immediately came to my mind as possibles from the Korean series.
It's just pictures of the same situation but different angles so neither may be good.
That's if Cy is cut. I'm not sure where he hangs in terms of votes right now, but I'll repeat my own; my stance on Criminal Minds is "better safe than sorry" so I say cut him.
The Dimension Spawn
Yesterday, Michealthehero 21 wrote an entry regarding the 2020 Sonic the Hedgehog film and how neither the echidna tribe nor Dr. Ivo Robotnik count as a Complete Monster. Today, I would like to give my own two cents. While I agree the echidnas are too vauge to count as C Ms, Robotnik SHOULD count. First off, the Freudian Excuse involving the bully and the straw. I wouldn't say that it was entirely Played for Laughs. If one would recall, Tom Wachowski was absolutely frightened by what Robotnik did to the bully, so I did not see that as "funny". Additionally, the doctor's treatment of Agent Stone is absolutely demeaning. Yes, he did compliment Stone's lattes, but that was a compliment to Stone did, not what Stone is. Also, if the "Stone stone" was a redeeming factor, then why would he throw the stone away like Tom Brady? With all that said, while Robotnik does have some funny scenes, all it does is underscore his childish sociopathy and thus deserves a huge .
No. He doesn't count. Not heinous enough, not even close, and he's played almost entirely for laughs. There have been versions of Robotnik evil and serious enough to count. Carrey Robotnik is not even remotely close to them in tone and rapsheet.
We've voted on him. There's no case to make. End of story.
Okay, something about Ramos that is really giving me serious concerns on this "drank Bleach thing"
.....Ramos isn't the killer of the episode. Every villain we have up is the focus on their own, where their crimes are front and center. With Ramos, it's background....and the others? We get their pattern because we see what they do in flashbacks or what they attempt to do, or in the victims they rack up in present. With ramos? He's murdered by the actual killer.
I'm sorry, but after the recent issues with The Tourist, this is giving me serious problems that Ramos's crimes are actually offscreen. If we only see a body and it's remarked later tha t"Oh, he killed 50 people by making them drink bleach," he runs firmly afoul of offscreen villainy. We cut a guy on Law and Order for being a war criminal because of zero flashbacks there. If Ramos doesn't get one, he needs to go ASAP. Learning he murdered someone's family this way with "and he also killed 50 + other people that way" is really stretching the pattern rule.
A villain who is tangential to the actual killer whose crimes are entire backstory? That is the reason for the offscreen villainy rule, otherwise we might as well put up Professor Ratigan for drowning widows and orphans.
EDIT: Okay, now I'm finding out more and more that wasn't even mentioned in the EP for Ramos. The killer of the episode, Jeremy Grant? Tortures his victims by making them drink bleach before he executes them. I don't care if they're crooked asshole victims and cartel members, this was entirely omitted.
Yeah, I'm sorry but keeping Ramos is entirely untenable for me now.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 29th 2020 at 6:53:52 AM
An Eldritch Troper
That’s a new point made here. I keep my vote to cut Ramos.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I don't regret my stance on the earlier points on him, as that's a whole new point that is relevant.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
So Ramos's villainy is entirely offscreen and his MO is replicated by the actual killer. Can we please cut him?
And yeah, Robotnik is entirely played for laughs. He's a humorous villain who isn't treated seriously whatsoever. I can't see him as a keeper here and I think we've well discussed it.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 29th 2020 at 6:56:01 AM
The Dimension Spawn
I know already told you this, but, Scraggle, it's been only two days, and besides you, I've only seen one other person talk about it. So, no, NOT end of story.
I'm right, your argument is null and void.
Well, count me to the list of people who think Robotnik doesn't count. He's a childish sociopath who's played for laughs, certainly not a CM in my book.
An example for a CM in a comedy film to me would be Francis in Deadpool.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Yes, end of story unless some new info comes up, like for example robotnik committed some awful crime were all just looking over.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I'll just C/P from my earlier response to you: it's because Michael covered everything that needed to be covered. Robotnik's not even close to the baseline standard—he tries to kill the heroes and there's some Offscreen Villainy with the bully. That's it. The damage done to San Francisco doesn't count toward his rapsheet because there's no mention or indication whatsoever of any civilian casualties or even any put in danger. No Endor Holocaust is in full effect and that badly cripples his heinousness.
Sorry to be blunt, but you're not going to get anywhere arguing Robotnik. We've had challenging cases before. This is not one of them.
And my "no" to Ramos is strengthened more than it already is, given that.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Surprisingly enough, "action" and "comedy" are not mutually exclusive.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:08:52 AM
Isn't "Deadpool" an action?
my hatred of bloated pages is drawing me into this: I don't watch ciminal Minds but reading over the entries and points being made I'm going to lend my voice to cutting Cy, Preston, Allen, the Replicator and Ramos.
You know what I’m switching back to cutting Cy and with what Lighty has said, perhaps I shall vote to get Ramos cut
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 29th 2020 at 5:15:26 AM
Robotnik from the new Sonic movie shouldn't even be considered. As I said earlier, even setting aside if he's heinous enough, he is played entirely for laughs. And not in a Joker-esque way where his jokes underscore how vile he is - Movie! Robotnik is a punchline, he's a goofy Jim Carrey cast, he's a more competent Dr. Dofenshmirtz from Phineas and Ferb. I saw the movie last week and I can hardly think of a single scene where they take him seriously as a legitimate threat.
Nothing else to say on him except I can see him being a new addition to the Never Again list if people keep trying to bring him up
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 29th 2020 at 7:13:38 AM
I don't think we'll need an NA list addition. If people push him, sure, but I think for the most part he's pretty open-and-shut.
Ultron, Dormammu, Beast, Micheal, Witch, & Hitler III
cut Image!Karza (at least we got the Marvel version) and all the Criminal Minds guys (at least the ones being considered deleted)
Question about heinousness: what if two villains had equal amounts of resources, but different goals (for example two evil villains, but one just wants money while the other would commit mass genocide)
Edited by nwotyzal on Feb 29th 2020 at 7:35:12 AM
Okay, with this new information on the table I agree with cutting Ramos. And on a similar note, Robotnik definitely absolutely does not count. Ruthless and evil as he may be, he's still Jim Carrey putting on a performance in a similar vein to all his silly, zany, over the top 90's/early 2000's movie roles and is just too wacky to count.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Eh, Keep Cy atleast.
But Cut Ramos with all that Info in mind.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think both can count, we've let up guys do to them being 2 different breeds of bad guy.
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 29th 2020 at 5:21:45 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
My final word on CM....
I'm saying cut all 5. Cy is the only one I'd lean closer to, as nasty as he is, but....I'd also lean to cutting Floyd. As bad as he is, and as cruel as his little trick was, it's still just a limited count of murder and torture compared to those who kill dozens
But that's my opinion. People disagree, so be it.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
In light of the new information, sure, cut Ramos then.
Also I'm not gonna be in this forum all that much anymore. Just been dealing with a bunch of other stuff outside of the website and I don't have much time to invest myself with this forum like I used to. Not helping is that I've seriously been neglecting all the writing I said I was gonna do this year, and I wanna go back to that being one of my top priorities. Probably only gonna pop up at random whenever I got some EP from my To-Do List/Discussion Dates deadline to get out the way.
And on that note, trimmed a bunch of crap from my To-Do List so some of the novels I originally had up there (I think someone said they were interested in the Kiesha'ra franchise?) are up for grabs now.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
boy, the criminal minds heinousness standard sure is fucked up
And that's a yes to Hitler the Third.