IGN and their crusade against Hack and Slash.

^ Just because it is in minority doesn't mean it cannot be included. Nintendo have already implemented that feature in their games so there is no real reason why they wouldn't for any new games of theirs.

As for certain things being locked well Nintendo should try to fix that and what better way to satrt then implement that in a new game.

Again other games have and more than one save file so it could happen for any new games.

Scribblenaughts is still ambitious by being the first game to feature words in such a system. First being the key word here. Including hundreds or close to thousands of useable items in a game is no small feat at all. Especially considering how it opens up the possibilities on how to achieve objectives.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:26:19 AM by shinfernape

"Lol don't equate sales to quality."

I didn't write "quality". I wrote "Vocal Minority". You have to counter that argument, not about supposed quality, or what is supposedly more trusted. So almost the entire response you made is invalid, as it argues against Y, when I was arguing for X.

"Plus New Super Mario Bros Wii did so well because it cashed in on nostalgia and because apparently the japanese prefer 2D games over 3D for some reason"

Did you actually poll a representative sample of the customers to determine that was the reason? Did anyone do that? Or are you just assuming, as that is what the vocal minority also assumed without any proof?

edited 16th Oct '10 10:20:42 AM by DragonQuestZ

^ No man I read around for reasoning just as anyone else goes around asking for opinions.

Anyways a game like scribblenaughts like I said had real good sales, must be some large "minority" there.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:24:01 AM by shinfernape

1.33 million sales, isn't that much compared to an "easy to develop" game like New Super Mario Bros selling over 22 million. So it is still a minority.

Plus you're using a fallacy, which is that if people like a game that happens to be ambitious in on particular manner, that not only "has" to be the reason they like it, it also means they like ambition in general when it comes to games.

How about people liked the concept, not the ambition?

edited 16th Oct '10 10:29:55 AM by DragonQuestZ

Oh gods this thread is hilarious now. What the hell people.

Hack and Slash, please come back and make everything better.

Hey, he started it with his comments about certain games supposedly belonging on handhelds, and that home games were all about ambition... and then used a handheld game to support that claim.

Plus the thread topic isn't really helpful. The games mentioned as IGN having a supposed grudge against tend to not get really great reviews from most sites.

^ Man of course people like ambitious games. Like Portal or Scribblenaughts. These are the games that help push the direction of games forward.

New Super Mario Bros may have got sales but it didn't exactly push things forward unless you consider the super guide to be the ultimate thing to gaming eva.

The fact is the Silent Majority cannot always be counted on when it comes to buying games. The hardcore market has always been far more reliable and they pay more out for extras like merchandise or microtransactions. The Silent Majority don't push games forward like the Hardcore and infact it is the hardcore that help push it up more. If you cattered to the Silent Majority then gaming would almost grind to a halt in progression.

Infact the Silent Majority don't really pay much attenton to gaming news and they aren't the most informed audience unlike the hardcore.

A Vocal Minority is that for a reason. Because they have more passion and possibly more knowledge.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:39:13 AM by shinfernape

"Man of course people like ambitious games. Like Portal or Scribblenaughts."

You need to look in the dictionary, because that is not what an ambitious project is. Those were quirky and original. Not the same thing at all. GTA IV was ambitious, but user reviews showed that most gamers didn't agree with the reviewers that being so made the game great.

"New Super Mario Bros may have got sales but it didn't exactly push things forward unless you consider the super guide to be the ultimate thing to gaming eva."

Why is pushing forward an absolute requirement to be a "worthy" game? By that logic, Scribblenaughts 2 cannot be good, as it's merely a refinement, not pushing forward.

"The fact is the Silent Majority cannot always be counted on when it comes to buying games."

You're then assuming that this is just some homogeneous group, as if they either buy games or they don't. And you are assuming the vocal minority somehow always buys a game, when even niche sales show that NO GAMING GROUP can always be counted on to buy a game.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:45:38 AM by DragonQuestZ

^ GTA 4 did get real good reception and also sell truckloads. It has got a few negative reviews which would make me fell twice a lil but ultimately if the right reviewers say it's good then I trust them more rather than potential trollish fanboys.

A game getting good sales and reception for being ambitious is a good thing because chances are they'll fix it up like they're doing with Super Scribblenaughts.

No the casual market is reaaaallly unreliable as they all bought up red steel 1 but red steel 2 got low sales. Virtually no one could predict how much of a success Just Dance is whereas for hardcore games it is a lil easier to say ME 2 will sell well or Brutal Legend maybe.

Super scribblenaughts is an imporvement as i already mentioned by adding adjectives! It increases the possibilities almost exponentially. Pushing gaming forward is obviously a good thing as you get better games compared to the ones in the past, it's called progression.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:51:59 AM by shinfernape

Agree with Shininfernape I really don't.

As in simple story telling is lazy compared to HD sequences? I'm one to think "Epic Graphic Cutscenes" are lazy, if they are of something I could have done. This goes all the way back to Hansel and Gretta in Spyro the Dragon where you get a movie of the two kids beating some ninjas the player could have beat themselves, and using moves it would be nice to have in game.

That said, if we're calling Vocal Minority on hardcore gamers, that's fine, but I'm calling Vocal Minority on all you who constantly whine about IGN. "You can't spell ignorant without IGN?" Well you also can't ignore that Shooters like Doom, Golden Eye, Turok, Half Life, Riddick, Metroid Prime and Halo as well as Sports games like Wii Sports, Madden, and Backyard Sports have traditionally sold better than most Hack And Slash games, save a few standout titles like Zelda, which is more of an exploration and puzzle solving game anyway.

IGN loves God of War, which is just about as hack and slashy as it gets, mean while, Fist of the North Star's main draw was punching people. Maybe people don't want to play a "hack and slash" of it. What exactly did Kenshiro hack and slash with? Or am I confusing him with the gay dude from X-men?

edited to remove profanity, sorry about that

edited 16th Oct '10 10:50:55 AM by Cider

"I trust them more rather than potential trollish fanboys"

Did you even bother to ask what I meant by user reviews, or did you just assume that out of the blue? The trolling reviews were not what I meant by that, so assuming that is the case does not disprove my point.

"A game getting good sales and reception for being ambitious"

There's your fallacy about assuming sales reason again. Reviews for that reason only prove the reviews were for that reason. It does not prove that is why a game sells.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:51:04 AM by DragonQuestZ

^ Dude Scribblenaughts obviously sold well due to the what you may call gimmick of being able to write words which become objects. Ambition may not always be the no1 reason but it's still a good reason.

I remember Force Unleashed showing off it's physics engine and ahsowing how impressive it was. The game might be mediocre and it's success might be down to how it has the name Star Wars but it did end up being one of the best selling games ever featuring the words "Star Wars".

@ Cider well what if you cannot do that stuff from the cutscenes in the game then? Spyro is afterall a quadrapedal dragon and I dunno whether they could have featured kung-fu into the game. Or like in FF 13 where at the end they turn into some big ol' monster. It might be kinda hard to make such a massive monster and make it feel so impressive with you controlling it. Also would it be any fun? Or like In the Op for MK Armageddon with that massive fight in the opening. It would be hard for any fighting game to have that many fighters on one screen at once, especially when the game was made. Again would it work and would it be any fun?

edited 16th Oct '10 10:58:56 AM by shinfernape

My only problem with Hack and Slash is the fact that many rpgs have gone the way of it. I don't really enjoy Hack and Slash for the reason it's repetitive. I won't say that all of them are bad because of it, of course, but I digress.

And most sports games don't deserve high ratings anyway.

I never knew Miyamoto was joking about the dress thing, but it's hard to enjoy a game with unnecessary motion controls(if a button can do they same job as shaking the wii remote, it's not needed) and two general toads that could've had just about anyone else. I waited till New Super Mario Bros. Wii was at 30 dollars before buying it and I did play it. I definately thought it was more of a cash-in than a great call back.

edited 16th Oct '10 10:58:39 AM by Hydronix

"Dude Scribblenaughts obviously sold well due to the what you may call gimmick of being able to write words which become objects. Ambition may not always be the no1 reason but it's still a good reason."

Now I know you're full of it, since you're using "ambition" to mean anything you want, even when anyone with access to a dictionary knows that is not where it fits. If you can't be bothered to be consistent in how you apply a word, you've already lost the argument, since you don't really have one (or else you would have something you could be consistent about).

edited 16th Oct '10 10:59:30 AM by DragonQuestZ

^ Ambition in terms of Scribblenaughts is implementing a system that has massive potential and possibilies. Perhaps I need to use the words massive and detailed. GTA 4 was very detailed and large. The large detailed environment opens up the potential quite a bit along with other things.

Ok to me atleast it is a tall order to create a game that uses so many words like Scribblenaughts or a world as big as GTA 4.

edited 16th Oct '10 11:03:16 AM by shinfernape

Again, that isn't ambition, as that word implies a motive. You need Word of God to verify something like that.

So you still need to look in the dictionary to know what you're writing about.

^^ Or a world as destructible as Mercenaries.

^^ Look man in a dictionary ambitious is aspiring to do some DIFFICULT to achieve. GTA 4 and Scribblenaughts were not easy to achieve and they were ambitious.

Yeah, maybe, I mean a four legged animal could never wall run or anything. That's never happened in Mega Man or anything. Kung Fu wasn't even needed, considering you could beat the Ninjas just by horn butting them to death and would the game have been that much worse without that scene, which in the long run contributed to nothing? Why not use that data space for more platforms in another place?

Maybe not, you probably couldn't put that many people for the players to use at once. But Mortal Kombat is a Two on Two game anyway. Not a real time army moving strategy thing. But as long as those scenes are brief I'll let them pass. When they go on and on into stupidity like Devil May Cry and thank God the developers were nice enough to let you skip them. Oh, speaking of Devil May Cry, most hack and slash games don't deserve their high ratings either.

And yet, this man marks down Kirby as "easy to make" despite having much the same complexity as Scribblenauts, but with a different direction.

NEVER assume any game can be easily developed. It takes time and years for a game to be completed. Except for shovelware.

^^^ But making a dragon do kung-fu might not be that freaking easy or achievable. I don't mind that Spyro has a relatively simple way of combat for some reason. I dunno a lot of games require you to string up a million combos so it makes a nice change.

@ Goggle but Scribblenaughts created a freaking big system and apparently created a handwriting recognition system better than even Nintendo's! Atleast Scribblenaughts made a different direction or rather it's own. Epic Yarn has you transform (nothing new) and use some basic yarn whip attack and apparently the game is very easy. Atleast Scribblenaughts is more sandbox with vastly more possibilities.

edited 16th Oct '10 11:14:09 AM by shinfernape

I love long and/or deep games quite a bit, but sometimes I really just want to do the gaming equivalent of curling up with some hot chocolate and visiting old friends, maybe making some new ones. Not every game needs to be this Big Ambitious Thing to be worthwhile - nor do Small Cozy Things need to be relegated to handhelds.