Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Not the Eye
Keep Fur trader, body count makes up for lack of ump to his kills.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Clown-Face and Papyru, please add the rewrites to the Drafts.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
Keep the Fur Trader if barely.
Keep the Fur Trader, good on you bringing up Wet but I think he still passes.
Keep Fur Trader
Keep the Fur Trader. He seems unique and is given enough characterization
Not the Eye
Another Star Wars edit to propose
From this:
- Warlord Unger Gout is the Separatist leader on Khorm, who enslaved his own people and works them to death in his mines, feeding corpses to the slaves to save money on food. He uses a Weather-Control Machine to keep the Republic forces off of Khorm, even though it devastates the planet's ecosystem. A coward who runs and hides from battle, at Asajj Ventress's suggestion, he plants bombs in the mines to kill the slaves if the Jedi come after him. When Ventress goes to kill the Jedi, Gout attempts to kill them with an ice storm, not caring that Ventress could also die.
To this:
- Warlord Unger Gout is the Separatist leader on Khorm, who enslaved his own people and works them to death in his mines, feeding corpses to the slaves to save money on food. He uses a Weather-Control Machine to keep the Republic forces off of Khorm, even though it devastates the planet's ecosystem and causes huge number of population to die of hunger or at hands of Droid army. A coward who runs and hides from battle, at Asajj Ventress's suggestion, he plants bombs in the mines to kill the slaves if the Jedi come after him. When Ventress goes to kill the Jedi, Gout attempts to kill them with an ice storm, not caring that Ventress could also die.
Thoughts?
Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 30th 2022 at 3:21:26 AM
I've always been kinda leery on the Fur Trader but more on the basis of the general standard (since the way it's written makes it clear it's a real in-universe note as opposed to in-universe fiction) rather than his crimes not being "visual" enough.
We know he's a serial killer with a lot of victims. I just find that insufficient when "serial killer with a lot of victims" is a description inherent to almost every random bandit and necromancer whose lairs are outfitted with dead bodies. Never mind named killers like Sild, who won't just kill you but will torture you to death, enslave your soul and force you to kill even more innocent people while keeping you wholly aware.
So I'd vote "cut" but not necessarily for the same reason as proposed. Even Kurdan gro-Dragal from Oblivion has the Hunting the Most Dangerous Game aspect about him, and even he might be worth a second look because beyond that bit, his victim count is nebulous and his cruelty's not necessarily as pronounced as some characters who just outright torture their victims (which is very common in ES—the depiction of graphic torture was the one and only thing that bumped up Oblivion's ESRB rating to an M).
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 30th 2022 at 6:02:03 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
From what I recall it was presented as In-Universe fiction with a hint of the story being Real After All. Is that the case? Because if so then I'm not sure if it should be judged with everything else.
Edited by Snoketrope on Dec 30th 2022 at 5:22:43 AM
The First man
No, it isn't, Kylo, and I'd like people to get off that assumption. Importantly there's only one copy of book in the entire game (in Dawnguard, in Dead Drop Falls) and the author is literally labelled as the fur trader himself, who identifies that he's writing it within captivity and ends the confession by noting he's about to break out.
Elder Scrolls makes a very fine point of outlining when an In-Game Novel is fiction. The Fur Trader's story is pretty blatantly a Real After All confession note.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 30th 2022 at 6:11:56 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Can't comment on Kurdan since my knowledge is only on Skyrim but while I'm here, I'll give a quick summary for the candidates:
- Alduin - Responsible for Mehrune Dagon's corruption, ruled over the dragon cult which is responsible for countless crimes, attempts to destroy Nirn and devours souls of the afterlife.
- Hevnoorak - Arguably the worst dragon priest, along with the other one who made his followers mass suicide, brainwashing, torturing, feeding paralised victims to giant spiders.
- Arondil - Ghost sex slaves
- Sild - And I Must Scream out of sadism and makes his ghostly thralls try to kill anyone who approaches his lair. Tortures his victims before they give out.
- Harkon - Had his daughter raped, has a body count of thousands (even if it's Offstage Villainy, his castle is one of the most viseral locations and underneath is literal mounds of bones everywhere,) and intends on having vampires go on a rampage with the sun being blotted out.
Sild and Arondil have the bare minimum resources and the sheer wtfness helps them stand out, in Hev's tomb there's plenty of evidence and someone tells you about it as well.
Harkon and Alduin I'm fairly comfortable with and the game itself I'd say is bled dry except for maybe a few tentative ones but that's for another time.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Didn't the high elf antagonist of the College of Winterhold questline literally almost destroy the universe at the end of the quest line as well?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ancano? Yes. That's a goal he shares in common with the Thalmor as a group, plus Mankar Camaron whose end state for Nirn is infinitely more horrifying. I'd support Ancano if he did literally anything else than kill a few sorcerers who were in his way.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Not even a few, IIRC it's only the arch mage he kills and the master wizard gets killed in the ensuring carnage off screen.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Not the Eye
So the guy who tries to destroy universe isn’t bad enought because he only tries to destroy universe.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Probably because it's not just him striving for it? His whole organisation is.
IIRC The Thalmor want to destroy the universe so they can ascend to godhood?
Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 30th 2022 at 1:43:26 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Where does it say that the Thalmor plan on destroying the universe? Because I've played Skyrim but I don't remember seeing anything about the Thalmor are Omnicidal Maniacs, just A Nazi by Any Other Name, but all over TV tropes it's palstered that they want to end the universe, I really don't where that info comes from.
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
I have been thinking about other big name Elder Scrolls figures, and I was wondering if the Night Mother has enough solid characterization from throughout the franchise to be worth a CM ep when that comes back? Founding and leading the Dark Brotherhood puts an unimaginable amount of blood on her hands.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The Thalmor hold a (fairly common) Altmer belief that the souls are trapped in a prison of constant reincarnation and that destroying Mundus/reality is the only way to be free of that and for the Altmer fo Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence. That's why they ban Talos worship; kill the god by killing his prayer.
This is a detail that's primarily contained to the extracanonical details (such as as the semi-canon "obscure texts"). Skyrim doesn't lean on the org-wide goal explicitly, but it still implies it in areas, and Ancano's use of the Eye of Mundus is the strongest showcase of it in the main series.
@Lore: The highly contradictory and (thus far) vague nature of the Night Mother and her past make me very heavily inclined to say no.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 30th 2022 at 6:54:59 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
I'm not sure on the Night Mother? In Skyrim she has odd lines that wouldn't come out of a CM IMO.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Professor Gigachad
I am looking at Kurdan's writeup and I to question if he is bad enough for the series. Hunting the Most Dangerous Game is I guess technically unique, I guess, but I remember that Law & Order: Special Victims Unit villain that was rejected despite having that as it was deemed to not be unique enough. And a nebulous victim count in a franchise with a standard that high is not a very good look.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 30th 2022 at 9:25:17 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Hunting the Most Dangerous Game really isn't unique in Elder Scrolls at all. It's the Modus Operandi for Hircine and his followers. In fact, hunting people is the main plot of Hircine's quest in Skyrim and tbe entire Bloodmoon expansion of Morrowind.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Professor Gigachad
Oh it isn't, I wasn't aware. In that case my vote is a cut.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 30th 2022 at 9:11:26 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
A lack of visuals don't really matter if its described enough, like how 95% of our book keepers since they come from non-picture books, so I say the fur trader can stay
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her