Cleanup Thread: MCU Character Pages

I'm not saying he's not prevalent or hasn't earned the page (he is one of the few antagonists in all four games, to be fair), and to be fair, I liked having him around cause we finally got to punch him in Knight And all those examples mean is that some people thought that Jeff and the two Roy kids had more tropes than the others, that's pretty much it. It doesn't mean that any one character is more prevalent, beloved, or deserving than another, it just means they have more tropes.

Yes, but the characters who have enough tropes to get their own page do conveniently happen to be prevalent characters...

Trust no one.

Yes, obviously, characters who are more prevalent are more likely to get their own pages by virtue of being around longer and having more material to work with, but correlation does not equal causation - prevalence does not equal "enough material for their own page". Hell, keeping up the Arkham example, if it was only about prevalence, Scarecrow is a major outlier by having enough tropes for his own page despite only appearing in half of the games, whereas the Penguin (three), Alfred (three), Batgirl/Oracle (all four, including her own DLC), Harley Quinn (three games, plus her own DLC), Killer Croc (all four), Bane (three), and Poison Ivy (three) all don't have one despite appearing more than him (and this is without including the tie-in comics, animations, and Blackgate that they appear in too). Again, prevalence is a factor, not denying that, but it's not the factor - that's just trope numbers, simple as that.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 28th 2022 at 12:07:29 PM

Look at it this way. If I have a stand of fruit, and strawberries are the most bought, I’m going to add more strawberries to my stand. If this keeps up, I’m going to eventually make a stand of nothing but strawberries because people evidently like strawberries, or atleast keep getting them. Why did I use a analogy of fruit you may ask? I don’t really know. It kind of got away from me there. The point is that if most people are going to the Asgard page to see and trope Odin, to the point he gets a large amount of tropes, doesn’t it make sense for him to have his own page?

I thought the idea of having the 40K limit was to remove stub pages, not never create new pages unless a page is literally overflowing. I’d rather see a shorter page that’s dedicated to a single topic then a long page that meets the limit but has a large amount of folders to navigate through. I also think the analogy got away from me again. Give me a break, I just woke up

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Well, at the beginning of this conversation, I wasn't talking about the Odin page, I was talking about the Pym family rearrangement. Odin, looking at his page numbers vs. the amount of things on the Asgard page, seems okay - though we need to look it over first for cleanup - so when I was talking about how it seemed like we were making pages just to make them and then clean it up after, I was talking about the idea that Hank Pym needed a page when the page he's on right now is completely fine and there's no need to rearrange it (you also said that part of the reason for the move was to make up for the small number of people on the page - again, that has never been an issue on any other page, though in hindsight, you might have been referring to byte count). You were admittedly coming off a night shift, but it seems like a pointless move that creates extra work for no reason.

But even then, even if Odin might be fine for a page - the idea that it means most people on the page are going to it to trope Odin seems very flawed to me. There's around two dozen characters on that page, the fact that he's the only one big enough for a page doesn't mean that most people are going there for him - for all we know, it's just one person going on a spree, we won't know unless we look in the history. So going by your fruit analogy, it'd be like if a few dozen people picked random fruits, but one regular customer came in every day to buy a bucket of strawberries - you might sell more strawberries by sheer numbers, but it doesn't mean it's necessarily your most popular item.

And yes, the 40K number is primarily to avoid creating stub pages, but the MCU already has dozens upon dozens of character pages, so I don't see why we're in a constant rush to create even more instead of consolidating the information in a comprehensive manner.

Here's where I land. Obviously, pages are going to be made. Characters get popular and get big enough for them, so it's not like I'm against making pages in principle. However, the mindset that a character getting their own page reflects on their popularity, their prevalence, or that it's something that they "deserve" is only going to create more cleanup for us, and with the MCU already having so many character pages, I'm inclined to take a more conservative approach and consolidate information rather than spread it out. If you disagree then you disagree and that's totally fine - it's not like this is a life or death battle here - but that's just my stance.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 28th 2022 at 4:15:48 AM

Well not everyone has enough tropes to get a solo page. The only characters currently over the 40k limit by themselves without variants are harrow, klaue, and odin, all either main villains or major supporting characters with more than 5 minutes of screen time. This is where the fruit analogy comes back. Even if only one person is buying strawberries, they are still buying enough to warrant their own section and not be bundled in with the other fruit.

And not every can get enough tropes to warrant a page even with popularity. Wong is one of the most popular characters in the MCU right now, but I could only crosswick enough to get him to around 22K.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

So, I know there are problems with the too many MCU pages being created lately, and that it might be contentious, but...

I think the creation of the MCU: Avengers – Allies page was the right move because it makes it easier to find the major characters that people are interested in rather than just having them lost in the middle of pages full of minor characters that no one cares about.

For this reason, I think that a similar page should be created for the major characters who are allies of the non-Avengers heroes as well. I took the liberty of making this Sandbox just in case:

MCU Other Superheroes Allies

(Having not watched any of the Disney+ show (except Loki) nor Cloak and Dagger or Runaways, I didn't put the characters that appear in those.)

What do you guys think?

I disagree with Everett Ross being classified as a Black Panther ally. Yes, he appeared in that movie as a supporting character, but he appeared in Civil War as an obstructive bureaucrat that interacts with the Avengers moreso than T'Challa, and he's also set to play a big role in Secret Invasion, which so far doesn't look to involve Wakanda in any way.

As of right now, I still think he fits under the United States Government page.

Speaking of the Avengers Allies page though, is putting Sharon Carter on that page a good idea? She's not exactly on Sam and Bucky's side...

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jun 29th 2022 at 11:43:08 AM

Trust no one.

Well, he had a much larger role in Black Panther than in Civil War, so much so that I wouldn't be surprised if most people completely forgot that he was present in the latter, and he played a big part in the final battle in Wakanda. He's also apparently supposed to reappear in Black Panther 2, so yes it's clear that he's a character primarily associated with Black Panther. Not to mention that, from what I know, the character is an important ally of Black Panther in the comics.
Also, since he's a major character that people might want to see his folder, the goal was to put him in a page that is more accessible than one of the umpteenth pages about the government or the military, which are so numerous that it's hard to keep track and are all full of minor characters to the point that it's hard to find the characters we're looking for.
I'd like to know what the others think before removing him.

Edited by Mimic45 on Jun 29th 2022 at 9:06:33 PM

I think that’s a good start. I’m not 100% on the name though but k don’t have any better ideas.

I think we should expand the concept of allies to cover full supporting casts though. Ms Marvel has got alot of supporting characters but under the current system only Bruno would count as an ally, unless I’m misunderstanding things.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

I’m okay with Ross being on the page. Between BP being his bigger role by far, being confirmed for the sequel, and the fact that his role as an ally is a personal one rather than on behalf of the government makes me okay with him, and if the inevitable Secret Wars shakes up his allegiance, we can move him somewhere else then with no issue.

My only thing is that if we expand the concept of allies further than it currently is, than almost every Allies page is gonna run out of room. Now if we just wanna say to hell with it and go to town, then sure we can make it work, but I think I lean towards the current system where it focuses more on actual Allies rather than just supporting casts in general.

Well, for the most part, I tried to include only the characters who 1. have a big enough role, and 2. actively help the heroes in their adventures and battles (Ross helped T'Challa in the arrest of Klaue and participated in the final battle; Christine helped Dr. Strange fight a Zealot at one point; Kathy accompanied Shang-Chi throughout the film and was involved in several fight scenes; the Inhumans characters helped the Royal Family fight Maximus's henchmen; Karun Patel accompanied Kingo in his adventures, including the fight against the Deviants in the Amazon; and Dane Whitman... Okay, I may be pushing it with him, but he did at least try to help the Eternals during their fight with Kro in London, and at the end of the movie he is willing to go up against a Celestial armed only with his sword to save Sersi and the others, so...).

Edited by Mimic45 on Jun 29th 2022 at 12:03:47 PM

Oh yeah, I was responding to Gate - I think your choices for allies were just fine Mimic

Oh right, never mind.

I think we should go full hog on it. We can keep the locations pages as soft redirects and have supporting casts under the allies section. Win win. People who want to search by setting can go through the locations section while people who want to see h through supporting casts can go through the allies sections.

I think your on the right track. Like I said before I’m still iffy on the actual name but since I don’t have any better ideas it’s good.

Also FYI I just noticed that America Chavez was moved to masters of the mystic arts. While I agree with the move, I don’t think it was mentioned anywhere. But since characters are being moved off of the page I think Kate Bishop, Jane Foster, and She-Hulk should be moved to avengers allies. Maybe Red Guardian and Isaiah Bradley too.

Edited by GateStarX on Jun 29th 2022 at 7:34:21 AM

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

I could see Red Guardian being moved, but I’m strongly gonna recommend Jane, Isaiah, Kate, and She-Hulk stay where they are. For Jane and Jennifer, it’s because we don’t know what their role in their next works is gonna be until they’re out, and once their works are out, we can make a judgement (for what it’s worth, I disagreed with Jane being moved to the OS page, but now that she’s there, I’d like to not further demolish the page history by moving her until we have a reason to). Meanwhile, Kate’s story is all about her becoming a hero in her own right outside of Clint’s shadow, while Isaiah is nowhere near an “Allie” of the Avengers - he’s a Big Good figure for sure, but he’s not going into battle, and his character is focused on his past as his own Captain America.

Meanwhile, I’m gonna advocate moving America Chavez back to the original page. She’s not a MMA, she’s just a civilian who happens to have powers and works with them. At best it’s honorary, but I don’t see why she was moved.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 29th 2022 at 11:04:50 AM

Does page history really matter that much? It’s just a record of what happens.

Also America officially joined the masters of the mystic arts as far as I know. That and she doesn’t actually do any superheroing.

But if Kate Bishop is going to stay, then Yelena should probably be moved to the other superheroes page then since she’s the second main black widow.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Yelena has yet to be working on her own though. Right now, she's still a government agent who is primarily known as Natasha's ally. As soon as she actually stands on her own and does some proper superheroing for herself, then sure I'll be down to move her, but Kate and Yelena's stories are not quite the same - Kate works independently as well as with Hawkeye and is eventually promoted to the title on her own merit, while Yelena is still working underneath other forces, specifically Valentina, and narratively hasn't quite gotten out of Natasha's shadow.

I think your right for now. Idk, I might come back to it later after thinking about it for a bit.

I want to launch harrow, klaue, and may. They all should be over 40K and their base pages should be fine without them. Harrow is the main villain of moon knight, klaue has multiple appearances as a villain and is the secondary antagonist of black panther, and may is a main character of Agents of Shield. I think these are enough justifications for them all to launch.

I also created a sandbox for ghost rider, but I do agree that the formatting isn’t good enough atm for it to launch. I just wanted to bring it up.

I’m currently celebrating Canada Day and seeing fireworks so I’ll launch em when I get home. Thoughts?

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

From my experience lurking on the Other Supervillains page, Harrow should be fine. Give me some time to look over Klaue and May to make sure there's not any misuse that's pushing them up the byte count.

Edit: I cleared up a bit of misuse on Klaue and he's still big enough, so he's good to go as well. I need to go to sleep, but I'll check May's in the morning.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 1st 2022 at 1:28:08 PM

Ok. Thanks for looking them over. I might do some more work on the May page though.

I just remembered that I forgot about the Odin page. that one should also be good to go.

I'm also going to move Harrow's indexing to MCU: Criminal & Terrorist Organizations like Klaue's, as his cult is also on that page.

Edited by GateStarX on Jul 1st 2022 at 11:23:24 AM

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Alrighty, Odin's good to go as well, just gotta double-check May but it looks fine at a glance

Edit: And I've checked May's page too - after cutting some misuse she's only barely over the byte count, but she's still over it, so I guess it's good to go too

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 2nd 2022 at 3:48:51 PM

Ok, so the following pages are launched.

• MCU: Arthur Harrow
• MCU: Ulysses Klaue
• MCU: Odin
• MCU: Melinda May

I think that's it for any characters that need to be launched. Now its on to more cleanup.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Does anybody know what happened to Frigga's folder in MCU: Asgard?

Well shit. That was my mistake. I must of accidentally deleted her when changing the Odin section into a redirect. I'll get the mods to revert the page.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!