Creator Backlash

Literally over half of the "examples" listed on Creator Backlash are some form of "[person] didn't like [specific aspect of how something was produced or how the fans reacted to it], but still likes the thing". If the creator likes the thing, then it's not Creator Backlash!

I'm pretty fresh off a several-months-long ban for pruning non-examples like these a bit too aggressively, so I'm skittish about embarking on another purge project so soon. Does anyone want to go up to bat?

I feel like Creator Backlash really needs a clearer definition before any kind of cleanup can occur. It's come up more than once that it's not clear what differentiates it from Old Shame. (Supposedly the latter is for when both the creator and the audience dislike it, but that's not at all borne out by the examples for both tropes).

Old Shame feels like a simultaneous case of "the same but more specific" and "the same but less specific." Its core definition seems to be "Creator Backlash so intense that the creator themselves treats the work as Fanon Discontinuity," while its actual use on this site appears to be in reference to any event, action, incident, etc. that someone's deeply ashamed of (rather than specifically a work).

A TRS thread might be necessary to better differentiate the two.

Edited by bowserbros on Sep 17th 2021 at 12:19:09 PM

I added the trope to Tropes Needing TRS. Some day I might bring it over.

That seems like a good course of action; made a slight adjustment on the sandbox to clarify that its misuse extends beyond just works.

I could have sworn we've had a discussion on this topic before. I believe it was concluded that the difference is how the work is treated by the creator.

• Creator Backlash: The creator has a strong negative reaction (usually along the lines of anger?) towards the work.
• Old Shame: The creator is ashamed of the work for whatever reason.

There are also some other subtleties, like CB involving more open discussion about the flaws of the creation while OS tends to skew towards the creator burying the work.

They should probably be merged, though. "Creator has a negative opinion of their work" is all we really need.

Edited by Karxrida on Sep 18th 2021 at 2:10:26 AM

Bumping this thread. It's something I've noticed for a long time, to the point where I start this TRS thread for Old Shame, which I think ~Karxrida is remembering.

Unfortunately that thread stalled and closed before any action was taken, so maybe this should be started up again?

It doesn't really lines up with the description but my impression of Old Shame was that it's specifically about something in an actor or creator's career that they did before breaking out and that's embarassing, presumably because the work is bad or the role unflaterring, or for more crispy reasons (ex: a "serious" actors being in porn). Stuff like Adam Sandler starring in the bad movie "Going Overboard" before having a regular acting gig or the video game company Enix starting out doing hardcore porn games before having success with decidedly more chaste titles.

So Samuel L. Jackson joking his first movie "Together for Days" is crap and nobody should see it would be Old Shame while Boyega shittalking the Star Wars sequels would be Creator Backlash. The one grey area I would see is when a creator starts with a work that's popular for a given niche and then makes sometimes that's popular in a bigger niche and give the "Oh, it stunk" treatment to their earlier work (One instance I can think of is the writer of webcomic Cucumber Quest disowning her earlier Persona comics despite those being fairly popular at the time). I'm not sure if that's a particularly useful or maintainable distinctions, but then I feel some pages distinctions on this website are fairly contrived.

Bumping this thread. It's something I've noticed for a long time, to the point where I start this TRS thread for Old Shame, which I think ~Karxrida is remembering.

I've also raised the subject before. Creator Backlash seems to get used to note down any criticism creators may have of their work; usually those criticisms are a creator acknowledging that they could have done something better, or they were less skilled or experienced and would do things differently now, or that they made mistakes.

It's not that they don't like the work, or that they're ashamed of it. It just means they're able to look at their work and see where they could have done things better or differently, or that they take on board constructive criticism from elsewhere.

It's just "Creators are Human" or "Creators Can Objectively Assess Their Own Strengths and Weaknesses". What it's not, however, is Creator Backlash.

When I assessed the two tropes in the past, I felt that they were as follows:

Creator Backlash:

• The work must be popular; it's something that is loved by fans.
• The same work must be hated by the Creator. Not simply disliked. Hated. They are their own Hatedom.
• If the existence of the work is raised, the creator is likely to rant about how terrible they think it is.
• The discrepency between the fans' love for the work and the Creator's hatred for the work can generate friction between the creator and fans.

Old Shame:

• The work is something that is considered a bad creation. Either because it was just too bad to be popular, or only a niche crowd ever liked it, or because it was fine when first created but the times have moved on and it's got problematic Values Dissonance now. Whatever the reason, the work is mostly not considered a good thing.
• The chances are that this is a work the creator did before they became mainstream, or successful, or experienced. And it shows.
• The creator also thinks the work is a bad creation, sometimes for the same reasons, sometimes for different reasons. Whatever the reason, they are ashamed of it, and wish it had never existed — this isn't hate, this is cringe/embarassment/shame/humiliation.
• If the existence of the work is raised, the creator is likely to want to avoid or change the subject.
• There is unlikely to be much friction between creators and fans over this — there's general consensus that this isn't a good creation.

So, the key differences are:

• Creator Backlash: The creator loathes a work the fans love, and their willingness to tell the entire world exactly how much they hate it, helps generate friction between the creator and fans.
• Old Shame: A creator is embarrassed/ashamed/humiliated to be associated with a work that is generally considered to be either very bad or very inappropriate for modern sensibilities, and would prefer to avoid discussing it ever existed.

Magnum Opus Dissonance is for when Old Shame is applied to a work that's considered brilliant/popular (although mostly for the work that's considered their best work). If your example is just a work that had limited popularity and could perhaps count as a Cult Classic (or equivalent), then it might still be Old Shame. If the work was popular, and the creator now hates it (leaving the fans feeling snubbed), that'll be Creator Backlash.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 23rd 2022 at 1:59:28 AM