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Both of those changes to the recap sound good to me.
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Ah yeah, those proposed rewrites seem better now that you mention them; I was going mainly off of what I remembered, and among other things I somehow thought Queen used "knight" as a shorthand term for a Lightner who specializes in opening Dark Fountains.
Edited by bowserbros on Dec 10th 2021 at 4:06:59 AM
Be kind.
Lights Out!
I'm still hesitating what to do next to resolve the question of tropes that refer to Deltarune as if it was an adaptation of Undertale.
Should I bring it up in Is this an example? Or should we come to a consensus here?
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I think part of the issue lies in the fact that there isn't really a clear means of distinguishing cases where characters from one work appear in another that doesn't necessarily adapt the previous one. "Adaptation" in this case is being used fairly loosely — in this case adapting the characters but not adapting the story — because there doesn't seem to be a proper alternative (the fact that pages like Laconic.Adaptational Badass and Laconic.Adaptational Wimp keep the tropes' definitions of "adaptation" vague doesn't help), which might suggest a need for TRS work worst-case scenario.
Edited by bowserbros on Dec 11th 2021 at 10:52:21 AM
Be kind.
Lights Out!
Does it even adapt the characters? They're supposed to be different entities from the ones in Undertale; it's not a reboot or a retelling either.
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Yeah. I think calling it an adaptation is a huge stretch, in the same way that Tezuka implementing his star system across more than one work counts as an adaptation of each other.
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In that case I guess the solution would be to axe the tropes from the character pages.
That said, I'm curious to know if there's room for proposing a trope or set of tropes that do cover stuff like this, given that unlike Tezuka's Star System (which is more a Golden Age of Animation-style cast of fictional actors), Deltarune is explicitly an Alternate Universe and relies on knowledge of the Undertale cast's characterization in that game to make their portrayals in this one have more impact.
On the other hand, I wonder if that's just simultaneously too broad and too specific to work compared to the other Alternate Universe tropes.
Edited by bowserbros on Dec 11th 2021 at 3:38:13 AM
Be kind.
Just cut all of that and link the Undertale character page for people who want to see the tropes applying to their versions there.
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That sounds doable; just went ahead and took care of that. Given that the returning characters from Undertale are all Lightners, I assumed that it'd be best to put the Characters.Undertale link there.
Edited by bowserbros on Dec 11th 2021 at 4:00:12 AM
Be kind.
I know I'm days late to this, but I really don't think the Sans Fight should be treated as a spoiler. There have been many, many instances of people knowing about Sans, his fight and MEGALOVANIA long before Undertale (I was one of those people but that's irrelevant), and the only reason for why Sans is so popular is his hard-as-shit boss fight. At this point, it's common knowledge to everyone both in and outside the UT fandom. It's basically the "Luke, I am your father" of this game.
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OK I looked back and it turns out that the reason why I thought I remembered Queen stating that she was going to make Noelle a knight was this sentence on the Wikipedia page
for Deltarune:
She kidnaps Noelle, who was sucked into the Dark World along with Berdly, aiming to make her happy by transforming her into a "Knight"—a powerful being capable of creating Dark Fountains.
The article also pins Berdly as the one who tried to open a fountain post-GIGA Queen, and that lined up with what I recalled too (it's been a couple months since I played Chapter 2). That said, I still think the Recap.Deltarune Chapter 2 A Cybers World rewrites
proposed by Styx D sound better; they're free to add them in when they get the chance.
Edited by bowserbros on Dec 12th 2021 at 11:20:05 AM
Be kind.
Lights Out!
I've made the changes.
Just to be sure, I watched the relevant parts of the game.
Queen does kind of refer to making Noelle a Knight; the exact wording is "If the Knight took their leave, why not make a new one?" But I think she means this just figuratively; for the sake of clarity of recap, I think my change is valid.
And Berdly is definitely not the one who decides to open a new fountain. It's actually Noelle's idea.
x4 So, should I go ahead and do this?
(I guess I'm the Berdly in this case.)
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Ah, good to have that clarified. As for cutting out the "adaptation/adaptational" tropes, I already took care of that.
By the way, do we really need Noelle and Berdly to share a page? Noelle can have an entire page to her own (I checked it, combining her folder with the tropes from the "applies to both" folder gives somewhere around 43,000 bytes), while Berdly can be merged back to the Lightners page (even if he's just barely not big enough for a page, having only 39,757 bytes). It's implied that Noelle will return in future chapters anyway, so they might get seperated again in the future.
Lights Out!
Makes sense to me.
Uh, I still see them on VideoGame.Deltarune, are we talking about the same thing?
Edited by StyxD on Dec 19th 2021 at 6:27:36 PM
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Sounds good to me as well.
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Ah, I only really looked at the character pages because that's where I thought they all were; if they are indeed on VideoGame.Deltarune too, you're free to cut them out.
Lights Out!
So basically I'm supposed to Cut List the Noelle/Berdly page, right? I want to make sure I don't mess something up by accident.
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I just remembered, since we've already decided to treat Kris as nonbinary, should we also refer to Mettaton and Mad Mew Mew as trans given the nature of their backstories? Both feel like intentional cases of the Supernaturally-Validated Trans Person trope, given that their whole spiel is that they were relatives of Napstablook who transitioned by inhabiting physical bodies, right down to changing their pronouns. Heck both even talk about how they feel more fulfilled in their corporeal forms.
I ask because I noticed that both characters were listed on the Trans Audience Interpretation page (though not YMMV.Undertale, interestingly), and it threw me off because I thought their backstories did enough to establish them as being explicitly trans rather than it being solely a fanon thing.
I don't think so; in both cases it's a very clear trans allegory, but I don't think it's cannon that they're trans.
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I was wondering that too, but the fact that both Mettaton and Mad Mew Mew change their pronouns from "they/them" to "he/him" and "she/her" (respectively) makes me inclined to say otherwise.
In Mettaton's case, its not clear whether his pronouns actually changed: when Undyne talks about him pre-getting his robot body she uses they/them, but in the context of talking about how she has no idea who 'Napstablook's cousin' is or what that cousin's name is: it's possible that she was just using they/them because she didn't know what pronouns were preferred.
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While we can see the applicability in both cases, Mew Mew feels "intended" to read as "actually trans" in a way that Mettaton doesn't.
In our opinion.
Edited by wingedcatgirl on Jan 12th 2022 at 6:50:24 AM
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
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On an unrelated note, I ended up spotting this on UsefulNotes.COVID 19 Pandemic:
- Deltarune, despite taking place in an alternate world dominated by monsters, has a reference to the pandemic in Chapter 2, where it's shown that proper social distancing guidelines are being enforced in school, with Kris wondering if Toriel had a hand in this.
I'm... not sure if that's what it's supposed to be getting at. It's timely, sure, but when I was playing Chapter 2, I interpreted it as a standard "prudish school chaperone/religious mom" joke considering that, if memory serves, the crux of it revolves around a drawing of two people embracing being edited to move them apart from one another in the context of a school dance. Should this be removed or is it safe to consider it an intentional COVID reference (given that Toby alluded to it when explaining why Chapter 2 was released for free)? Be kind.
Crown Description:
The subject of Kris and their gender has sparked a heated debate and multiple edit wars, with people adding, re-adding, and deleting Ambiguous Gender examples from their character page. This crowner is to firmly decide whether or not Ambiguous Gender should be included in their character sheet.