Updating the "Roguelike" description

This is my first thread that I can recall making on these forums, so apologies if I've put this in the wrong place.

I've been looking at the Roguelike page for a while and feel like this could do with some cleaning up - but I also feel that there is a discussion to be had about the usage of the term.

The way that the term "roguelike" is used has shifted somewhat during the lifetime of TV Tropes itself - indeed, if you look at the discussion page, a few people have even complained about that shifting usage over the years.

I feel that the current description of roguelikes given on the Roguelike page, while technically accurate, is confusing in its focus. It mainly talks about terminal-based dungeon crawling games, as these were the original roguelikes - however, I believe that these days, when people use the word "roguelike", that is not the definition they are looking for.

"Roguelike" is increasingly being used in an adjectival sense to describe a certain flavor of gameplay - one which combines procedural generation and permadeath. It is no longer tied to a genre as such - instead, a lot of games are described as having "roguelike elements". Take Spelunky for example - this is a Platform Game with roguelike elements. It is often called a roguelike, but it is clearly a platform game.

I believe the reason that the Roguelike page focuses so heavily on the "classic" definition is Fan Myopia: fans of those classic roguelikes don't want the genre to become diluted by games which only pay lip service to the roguelike ideal. Indeed, I was one of those fans - roguelikes have a special place in my heart and I would love to see those dungeon crawling games recognized. But I feel that we have to move with the times and accept the modern usage. The term "roguelike" is used by a lot of people, quite casually, and anyone unfamiliar with it will currently be met by a page that will not help them that much.

My suggested rewrite is as follows:

• Define roguelikes according to the most minimal definition: games that combine procedural generation and permadeath.
• Describe the historical origin of the term, and how it has evolved to its current usage.
• Remove all of the parts that are specific to classic dungeon-crawling roguelikes.

Unfortunately, most of the article is about classic dungeon-crawling roguelikes, so a lot of content would be lost this way. I do wish to retain that content, but I haven't thought of a satisfactory way to categorize it. There is no recognized name for what I am calling "classic roguelikes" - they are simply roguelikes to anyone who plays them.

Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this?

Regarding the suggested re-write, I think that I'm inclined to agree. What you've proposed looks like a reasonable and useful definition, to my mind.

That said, regarding the removal of the parts specific to the "classic" form, I'd suggest instead that at least some of that text falls under the history of the genre. Furthermore, the "classic" form is the seminal form of the genre, and thus perhaps worth noting. I thus argue that at least some text be kept, even if reworked.

(On a side-note, I might argue further that all genres are like this; that, instead of being boxes that neatly contain items, they're markers to which an item can be closer or further. The RPG genre is an excellent example of this, I think, with its varied applications, forms, and degrees.)

As to a name for the "classic" form of the roguelike, if not that—"classical roguelike"—perhaps something like "dungeon-crawl roguelike"?

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Sep 27th 2020 at 8:15:45 PM

I like it, but stuff like this goes in the Trope Description Improvement Drive.

Maybe we can make a trope for "Roguelike Elements"?

I'm in favor of making a new trope for Roguelike Elements and restricting the main Roguelike page to classic roguelikes, or at least roguelike RPG's, since Roguelike is currently classified as a subgenre of RPG.

We do have RPG Elements, so there's precedent.

Something something How Roguelike is your game

I don't know what that contributes to the conversation but I know it contributes something