Cleanup: IntercourseWithYou

I initially brought this to the Trope Repair Shop, but I got directed here instead. My point, however, is that this trope page is in need of cleanup. It's supposed to be a page for listing songs that contain come-ons, but because this is a family-friendly website, some restraint must be exercised to make sure things don't get too lewd. I think a good guideline would be this: if it wouldn't be acceptable to play on the radio even in censored form, it's probably not acceptable to list here. It's not a page for gushing about the most explicit details of the most explicit songs. And it's definitely not a page for talking about musicians' actual sex lives. Think PG-13 rather than XXX.

What are the innappropriate examples? I'm skimming and from what I can see, most examples are just "Singer X's song "Y" is about this"; in other words, a bunch of ZCEs.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not seeing the same issue you're seeing.

Courtesy link: Intercourse with You

I don't agree with this thread. It feels like it's leaning awfully close to infringing the "No Prudishness" part of No Lewdness, No Prudishness.

Songs about sex are a very common thing, and a valid trope. If we have to use some swears and describe sexual acts, then so be it. Preferably, we shouldn't come across as gushy and creepy when doing so, but if all we're doing is quoting the song's lyrics verbatim, and giving a brief explanation of what they mean, that's completely within our standards.

If that kind of stuff bothers you, you can always just, you know, not look at the page.

Yeah, and I worry that trimming any examples that cross those lines will turn the rest of the page into ZCEs.

If there are some genuinely creepy examples we'll cut them, but...

Well, I did in fact see some genuinely creepy examples. Take, for instance, the one about "What's Your Fantasy?" by Ludacris. That example includes a very explicit line from the song, which it didn't need to. And I even saw an example that related to Brian Johnson's actual sex life- definitely not appropriate! I'm not trying to eliminate all swears or all sexual references, just the ones that are gushy and unnecessary. It's like I said before: we're going for PG-13, not XXX. Balance is key.

Edited by MsRandom303 on Feb 7th 2020 at 10:03:59 AM

The "What's Your Fantasy" example isn't going too far; in fact, removing the quote would probably leave us with a Zero-Context Example.

I'll give you the Brian Johnson example, not because it's too explicit, but because it's Natter.

I wouldn't call the Ludacris one "unnecessary" or "gushing"; it's just quoting the song, and we don't censor quotes.

Honestly, I believe that this cleanup can be done without turning everything into a ZCE. The majority of songs about sex can be written about with just a quick, non-gushy summary and/or a few demonstrative but non-graphic lines. Many examples do that, but I found enough examples that do not to merit a cleanup. And the reason for my concern is that nobody wants a Third Google Incident.

Well, you can always clean the page as you see fit as this is a wiki (if it's not an edit war and so on). Anything creepy and gushy should obviously go. Mentioning real life sex life of the performers and musicians absolutely has to be purged.

But reading your posts, I fear you really might be failing a bit on the "no prudishness" part of our policy. Brief quotes from songs are perfectly fine IMO. We are family friendly, but we don't sanitise the page for children.

BTW I deleted some gushy stuff or real life gossip from the examples a while ago. But I don't feel like cleaning the whole page...

I'm sure we notice that the page also has a lot of zero context examples.

I agree that zero-context examples are an issue and are undesirable. This page is a place to avoid extremes of any kind. I suggest these guidelines for balance:

Examples should be summaries. No less and no more. They should get the point across, but they shouldn't rehash the most explicit parts of the most explicit songs. One or a few lines from the song is fine as long as it's not grossly NSFW. Think of it like a PG-13 movie. PG-13 movies can include swears and sexual references, and many do. They just can't revel in gratuitous detail, that's all. If a song is particularly explicit, take particular care. Choose quotes wisely, if you use them at all. If a song is so explicit that there are no lines that get the point across without being grossly NSFW, consider not including it. If you go ahead and include it, describe it without quotes. Regardless of a song's content, the example should not have a writing-with-one-hand-and-jerking-off-with-the-other feel to it. Hard-and-fast definitions are no use for this one; you know it when you see it. Absolutely no talking about musicians' actual sex lives. If you see an example that consists entirely of that, get rid of it altogether. If you see an example that violates any of the above guidelines, rewrite it to bring it into compliance.

Edited by MsRandom303 on Aug 9th 2020 at 10:51:06 AM

In order to give some examples of what I'm aiming for here, I've decided to rewrite two examples of this trope: one that was too far in one direction and one that was too far in the other. On Bon Jovi's main page, I found an example that was a ZCE. As someone who is familiar with Bon Jovi and not ashamed to admit it, I added some context. That includes a couple of lines from the song "Let's Make It Baby", the subject of the example. Yes they're sexual references and yes one of them includes a swear, but I added enough context to justify it and then let the page move on. I did add a little trivia, but it's not about Jon's actual sex life; it's about the impact of the lyrics on the song's availability, which I just thought was relevant and worth pointing out. Of course, you don't have to add trivia about a song, but you can if you stay on topic and don't gush. The other example, on the trope's main page, was about "Boom Boom Boom" by the Outhere Brothers. It's a particularly explicit song in its uncensored form, and the original example just rehashed the most explicit parts. Instead, I made it so the example, while it still includes quotes, gets the point across, and is not rated G, isn't so grossly explicit. I hope this will make it clearer that just because I'm trying to steer the page away from one extreme doesn't mean I'm advocating the other.

On second thought, I'll DM Ms Random 303.

Edited by FridgeGuy2016 on Aug 8th 2020 at 8:03:26 AM