This thread is intended for a civil, focused discussion on the various impeachment proceedings of President Trump and others in the administration.
Keep in mind that this is a narrowly focused thread, created to more closely manage this topic of discussion. The pros and cons of said impeachment were soft-banned in the General US Politics thread
for a few months, due to incessant arguing. However, there is a high desire to discuss said events and it is of such high prominence that we are willing to give this devoted thread a try.'
Things to keep in mind:
- This is about impeachment, votes on, investigations on, inquiries in, articles on, etc. Other American political discussions should go into the General Politics thread.
- Standard rules apply. Civility and appropriate forum conduct are paramount.
- Circular arguments about pros/cons are what got the topic banned in the first place. If we feel it's going circular, we will intervene. Multiple intercessions will not be looked on kindly.
- As for that intervention, mods will be monitoring and moderating this thread more closely due to the nature of the topic, and its history in the General Politics thread. We will warn and thump in an effort to keep this thread on-topic and civil, but we are more than willing to lock it if people aren't willing to course-correct.
This thread doesn't have to be a case of Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things, but it will be, if necessary.
Edited by nombretomado on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:19:24 AM
You think Trump is the kind of guy to pull a Nixon and quite while he's ahead? I also wonder what will happen if an Andrew Johnson scenario occurs and he's saved by a single vote, and how that would change him
The Spectre Monk
Not a chance. The office of the presidency is the only thing keeping him out of jail.
He will literally be dragged out kicking and screaming on January 20, 2021 (assuming he isn't re-elected)
I guess, after a night of pillaging and raping, a Viking wants a little something to go with his cocoa.
Like reflections in the glass!
Not to mention that he is frankly (forgive the use of gendered insults), an Attention Whore, and being the Presedent allows for quite a lot of attention.
The Spectre Monk
Just a general question:
How do you all think the Democrats are handling the impeachment process so far?
I guess, after a night of pillaging and raping, a Viking wants a little something to go with his cocoa.
Oh, bother.
They are handling it as well as anyone can expect. Pelosi and others were cautious and waited for compelling evidence.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Queen of Good Things, Honest
He will literally be dragged out kicking and screaming on January 20, 2021 (assuming he isn't re-elected)
You overestimate Trump's capacity for realism. If that was his concern, he would do exactly what Nixon did: resign from office and have his VP, now President, issue a full pardon to him.
No, the reason Trump won't do that is because of his raving egomania. He cannot condone the inevitable humiliation that would come from publicly conceding defeat. He intends to be President For Life, despite the logistical impossibility. He'll accept nothing less.
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Oh, bother.
Trump's a master of willful ignorance, much like most of his base.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Queen of Good Things, Honest
We have a trope: Better to Die than Be Killed. Nixon was like that. He saw the way the wind was blowing and realized the best option for him was to step down, take the pardon, and walk away rather than face the consequences of continuing to fight a fruitless battle. Nixon took the easy way out.
Trump's not like that. Trump has to be killed, metaphorically speaking; he will not "die" on his own terms. He will fight tooth and nail to defend his Presidency past the point that it becomes a futile endeavor, because that's the kind of person Trump is.
Trump is the kind of person who will, even as he is clearly losing the game, insist that he's actually winning and you're just too stupid to see it.
The kind of person who will demand you acknowledge that he actually won long after the game's been called in someone else's favor.
The kind of person who will continue bringing it up for weeks, long after everyone else at the table has stopped caring, to try and get the record "corrected".
The kind of person who, ten years after everyone's forgotten there even was a game, will occasionally bring up the "unfair" judgment in casual conversation with entirely unrelated people to try and get them on his side of the argument.
Trump is incapable of acknowledging a reality where he is not winning at anything and everything he does.
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
"How do you all think the Democrats are handling the impeachment process so far?"
This is the most united the party has been since the 2018 election. Pelosi and the Security Democrats coming out so quickly for an impeachment inquiry really opened the floodgates for everyone else to join in.
My biggest fear about impeachment would be that we'd go in half-cocked with a significant number of moderate and conservative Democrats not supporting it, and that the divide would kill any chance of swinging public support against Trump. Even when pretty much all my favorite progressive commentators starting supporting impeachment months ago I was still on Pelosi's side.
I don't know if the Speaker or the Security Democrats decided to move towards impeachment first, a New Yorker article says they decided independently of each other, but no matter how it went down it erased the barrier between them and the progressives.
The Spectre Monk
It's just I watch the Majority Report with Sam Seder and they all seem to think Pelosi and the Democrats will screw it up somehow.
But then again, those guys think anyone except Sanders and the Squad are evil, so...
I guess, after a night of pillaging and raping, a Viking wants a little something to go with his cocoa.
How fucking typical...
Oh, bother.
The kindest thing that can be said of Sam Seder is that at least he is not Jimmy Dore.
Disgusted, but not surprised
The Spectre Monk
That's not saying much.
Michael Brooks is even worse
I guess, after a night of pillaging and raping, a Viking wants a little something to go with his cocoa.
Trump wants to meet the accuser in person:
Trump: I want to meet my accuser
Emma CHARLTON AFP News 30 September 2019
US President Donald Trump said on Sunday he wants and deserves to meet the anonymous whistleblower at the center of the fast-moving scandal that has triggered an impeachment probe against him.
The whistleblower, who could testify soon before Congress, fears for their safety if their identity is revealed, according to a lawyers' letter released by CBS News.
Battling the deepest crisis of his presidency, Trump in a series of tweets railed against accusations that he should be impeached for urging Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate Joe Biden, his potential 2020 White House challenger.
"Like every American, I deserve to meet my accuser, especially when this accuser, the so-called 'Whistleblower,' represented a perfect conversation with a foreign leader in a totally inaccurate and fraudulent way," Trumped said.
Trump accused top Democratic lawmaker Adam Schiff of lying to Congress last week about what Trump said to Zelensky in the July phone call.
"He wrote down and read terrible things, then said it was from the mouth of the President of the United States. I want Schiff questioned at the highest level for Fraud & Treason," he wrote.
Trump's Republican aides have sought to turn the tables on Democrats pushing for his impeachment, insisting that the president was the true "whistleblower" as he had asked Ukraine to investigate Biden and his son for corruption.
"This individual is a saboteur trying to undermine a democratically elected government," Trump advisor Stephen Miller insisted on "Fox News Sunday."
"Getting to the bottom of a corruption scandal in Ukraine is in the American national interest."
Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani — who has emerged as his point man in the Ukraine scandal — led the charge along with Miller in combative Sunday talk show appearances.
Brandishing what he said were affidavits incriminating Biden's son Hunter over his work at a Ukrainian company, Giuliani said Trump was duty bound to raise the issue with Kiev.
"If he hadn't asked them to investigate Biden, he would have violated the constitution," Giuliani told ABC's "This Week," charging that "Donald Trump was framed by the Democrats."
- 'Honor your oath' -
The Democratic-led House of Representatives launched an official impeachment inquiry last week accusing Trump of a "mafia-like shakedown" of Zelensky aimed at damaging Biden.
Trump and his allies claim Biden, as Barack Obama's vice president, pressured Kiev to fire the country's top prosecutor to protect his son Hunter, who sat on the board of a gas company, Burisma Holdings, accused of corrupt practices.
Those allegations have largely been debunked and there has been no evidence of illegal conduct or wrongdoing in Ukraine by the Bidens.
But a transcript of the July call shows Trump pushing for Kiev to revisit the matter, saying both Giuliani and US Attorney General Bill Barr would be in touch.
For Democrats, that amounted to a smoking gun, leading Speaker Nancy Pelosi to finally approve an impeachment process she opposed as a risky distraction from the 2020 battle.
Pelosi on Sunday called for Trump to "speak the truth. Honor your oath of office to the Constitution of the United States."
"Don't make this any worse than it already is," she said.
Democrats have charged aggressively into the inquiry, ordering Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to turn over Ukraine-related documents and scheduling witness testimony.
On NBC's "Meet the Press," Schiff said he expected the whistleblower to testify "very soon" — with all precautions taken to protect their identity.
- 'In harm's way'? -
CBS News released a letter from the whistleblower's lawyers to the acting director of national intelligence expressing concern that their "client will be put in harm's way."
"We expect this situation to worsen and become even more dangerous," the letter said, calling for "appropriate resources to ensure their safety."
Democrats have said articles of impeachment — formal charges — against Trump could be completed in as little as a month and swiftly voted on in the House, where the party has a majority.
The Biden campaign sent a letter Sunday to US TV networks to demanding they stop booking Giuliani for interviews, accusing him of "knowingly and willingly" lying.
Polls suggest public support is growing for the impeachment inquiry, with a new CBS survey showing 55 percent of Americans — and nine in 10 Democrats — approve.
But even if impeachment is approved in the House, Trump would be tried in the Senate — where, for the moment, he appears able to count on a Republican majority to prevent conviction.
@ Tobias Drake: I saw a 2 hour documentary on Nixon. Apparently he had phlebitis and was risking it killing him standing up in his car. So Better to Die than Be Killed may be literal with him. Question is, is there a case for Pence to go the route of Spiro Agnew? I've heard bad things about him, though that might be more Trump clouding our view of him rather than fear of a Meet the New Boss scenario.
Reminder: what was Andrew Johnson's attitude towards the proceeding and eventual impeachment? He's the closest any president has gotten to being convicted
The Spectre Monk
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Uh... there's no way he can do that, right?
So the whistleblower is apparently looking at getting federal protection due to the risk of them being identified and killed. It’s unclear if they’re currently under protection, are requesting it or are considering asking for it.
Pence is a misogynist and a homophobe as well as Straw Hypocrite The Fundamentalist. His career was effectively over in the Republican party when he was given a second chance by being one of the (then) few Republicans to attach his star to Trump when it looked like he was a circus.
Some people have this idea he's the villain from the Dead Zone and he is a repulsive awful person but I've also grown up around assholes like him my entire life. I think people underestimate how aggressively bad Trump on all the fronts that Pence is bad on while overestimating how much Pence could do.
I don't underestimate how much of a threat Pence could be to trans, gay, and women's rights (so he'd have to fought tooth and nail) but I think Trump is every bit as bad as well as dangerous to the entire world.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 30th 2019 at 3:44:30 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
Theoretically, the sixth amendment is relevant to Trump's claim to being able to confront the whistleblower. Of course, that only covers criminal prosecutions, and it's unclear to me if an impeachment trial is a criminal prosecution. Certainly an impeachment inquiry is not a criminal prosecution.
We also have some precedent; Nixon wasn't able to confront Deep Throat (whose identity remained hidden for over 30 years).
Jupiterian Local
"He wrote down and read terrible things, then said it was from the mouth of the President of the United States. I want Schiff questioned at the highest level for Fraud & Treason," he wrote.
Oh, bother.
It's because this was something independent of the Russia inquiry, which had more or less been permanently stigmatized as a witch hunt.
It's also something that cannot really be excused or downplayed as Trump just being a convenient stooge. This was something he did.
Edited by M84 on Sep 30th 2019 at 9:31:27 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Student of Story
Close to as well as they could be. Adam Schiff got a little over dramatic in laying out the case before the committee, and there were a few Democrats who were resisting uniting on it for a bit, (by far the most notable, and as far as I know, the one from the bluest district, was Tulsi Gabbard note but she came around a couple of days ago)
Still, so far we’ve had the easy first steps, where Trump and co. have been causing self-inflicted wounds and haven’t formed a united front against it. They’ve also had the plus of getting a fresh piece of evidence of Trump’s corruption that came out of nowhere instead of being speculated about and hyped for months or years until it inevitably became Hype Backlash when it didn’t do something completely mindblowing, like have video proof that Trump ate babies and pissed on Bibles.
What happens and how they handle it when the news isn’t fresh, when Trump isn’t scoring own goals at the highest rate possible, etc., etc., is where things will really get dicey.
…
The kind of person who, ten years after everyone's forgotten there even was a game, will occasionally bring up the "unfair" judgment in casual conversation with entirely unrelated people to try and get them on his side of the argument.
25 years+ after the original comment, Trump was still sending pictures of his hands to the guy who called him a short fingered vulgarian. All along anyone hoping Trump would back down or concede to reality has been fooling themselves. There’s a very slight chance it might happen in some ways, he was persuaded during the 2016 campaign to finally admit defeat on birtherism and say Obama was born in the US, but the odds are very long against it happening.
Trump highlighted one quote from a longtime evangelical pastor warning of particularly dire consequences if the Democrats follow through.
“If the Democrats are successful in removing the President from office (which they will never be), it will cause a Civil War like fracture in this Nation from which our Country will never heal,” Trump tweeted, adding his own parenthetical to a quote from Robert Jeffress, a Southern Baptist preacher speaking on “Fox & Friends Weekend” on Sunday.
Trump’s tweet invoking civil war marks a notable escalation in his rhetoric about the impeachment inquiry and also highlights his close relationship with Jeffress, a pastor known for viciously attacking other faiths who holds sway over both evangelical voters and the president.
The tweet drew an immediate reaction, becoming the lead story on the Drudge Report and prompting critics — including one sitting Republican congressman — to accuse Trump of stoking violence and diminishing the reality of true civil war.
“I have visited nations ravaged by civil war. @realDonaldTrump I have never imagined such a quote to be repeated by a President,” tweeted Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.), a decorated Air Force veteran who served as a pilot in Iraq and Afghanistan. “This is beyond repugnant.”
House Democrat Don Beyer of Virginia urged other Republicans to join Kinzinger in denouncing Trump’s rhetoric, tweeting, “The president is testing to see who will echo or silently accept threats of violence.”
Queen of Good Things, Honest
That was a weird one, because he didn't admit defeat on it.
No, what he did was spontaneously switch positions and then declare victory. He declared that he, Donald Trump, was giving the FINAL WORD on the longstanding birtherism debateHey! and that the FINAL WORD in question was that Obama was born in the U.S.
It's the equivalent of Trump suddenly fervently leading the charge to impeach Trump and proclaiming that it will be his greatest accomplishment yet.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 30th 2019 at 11:41:06 AM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
About the "Trump wants Schiff arrested for "treason"" thing (God, did I just say that?), if such an action were actually (God forbid) carried out, who would be doing the deed? I think that's the important thing here. If it's a Trump flunky, he's fucked, but if it's somebody who knows the difference between satire and reality, not to mention someone who sees it as the executive overreach that it is, he's fine.
Edited by speedyboris on Sep 30th 2019 at 12:06:52 PM
While it's true that Impeachment is a political process not a criminal one the issue is that because it has the trappings of a criminal process the public perceive it as a criminal process.
Therefore for it to be seen as legitimate in the public eye there must be a criminal act that is worthy of prosecution. Because this will be tried in the court of public opinion and Senators as the notional conduits of that public opinion will then convict or acquit based on that political calculus.