RWBY Spoilers Thread

They wanted answers as to what the hell happened and Ironwood was informing them of what was going on.

Said reputation was already destroyed thanks to the Fall of Beacon.

Because she's a Maiden and given the track record for how their powers were taken from them, he at the very least tried to have some insurance.

Let's see what the score is, shall we?

• Beacon: Fallen, but the Relic is still locked away somewhere.
• Haven: Without a Headmaster and students being exported to Shade, Haven is as good as fallen, with its Relic out of the vault.

Atlas would be number three on the list of schools to fall and, since Salem is on a Relic hunting spree, its Relic would be plundered as well. And, as we see, Ironwood was right in that Salem would make a b-line to Atlas. Would his plan have worked? Possibly not, but you kinda have to take into consideration that Atlas is kinda made to be important by various factors, ironically even more important than Mantle. For as much as people make a big deal out of Mantle, had Salem got her way and destroyed Atlas, a lot more would be at stake than if Mantle fell.

Because when a certain king thought it'd be a good idea to not only lift a piece of the continent into the sky, create a school that has heavy emphasis on creating soldiers, and then shove one fourth of an apocalypse device into said school, then, yeah, Mantle is just a few city blocks compared to Atlas. Note how I didn't include the "sacrificing Mantle" bit in the above, though I would modify it to say "sacrifice Mantle to save Remnant" given how he had been neglecting Mantle in favor of trying to re-establish communications and take away two vital pieces that Salem has: miscommunication and secrecy.

The major thing about Ironwood is that he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist who ultimately has his best interests at heart before he began to lose control of the situation (having a deja vu moment with the Fall of Beacon), ultimately snapping and doing... whatever the fuck was Ultimatum. He's not as Obviously Evil as people make him out to be.

From RWBY V4 E11 "Taking Control":

So while the coup didn't happen in Volume 4, due to the weird timelines as a result of the split storyline, when the Belladonna's found out it was likely happening around the same time. And even outside that, they still learned about it in this episode.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 5th 2021 at 8:27:42 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

"They wanted answers as to what the hell happened and Ironwood was informing them of what was going on."

Nothing suggests that, were just told that Ironwood told the council stuff that made Ozpin look concerning and got his position

"Atlas would be number three on the list of schools to fall and, since Salem is on a Relic hunting spree, its Relic would be plundered as well. And, as we see, Ironwood was right in that Salem would make a b-line to Atlas."

Number 3 was Vacuo. They shifted gears in volume 6 because James screw ups were actively helping Salem and if Ozpin got him to come to his senses James could foil Salems whole plan..

"odify it to say "sacrifice Mantle to save Remnant" given how he had been neglecting Mantle in favor of trying to re-establish communications and take away two vital pieces that Salem has: miscommunication and secrecy."

It didn't have to be that way though.

He could have helped mantle first then focused on the tower

And how he was handling his plan made it so he was basically actively sabotaging himself.

Because of how crappy his reputation looked its unlikely remnant would actually trust him, and he was ignoring how both candidates were running on the platform of 'Ironwood Sucks' and would likely be an obstacle if either one

James is a well meaning and tragic charachter. But he's tragic not because of any decsions he had to make or something, he's tragic becasue he's the type who meant well but actively made things worse for everyone because he made bad decsions, the type who could have been great if it weren't for the Horrible enemy known as himself. And was incapable of actually learning from his mistakes regardless of how others or himself suffered from it.

Edited by Snoketrope on Mar 5th 2021 at 5:36:35 AM

The First man

x2 My bad. Here's hoping we finally get a good fight this volume. For me, the only moments in V8 fights so far that stood out to me were Harriet's combo on Penny in episode 3 and Hazel's dust meteor in episode 9.

We all have to answer to the call of fate when it beckons us, even if it is not at a moment of our choosing.

And even putting aside the issue of Mantle's physical defenses, Ironwood left them with outdated cyber-security and automated drones which had BOTH previously been hacked. He knew these were compromised, and having them updated along with Atlas's systems wouldn't have slowed down the Amity Project.

He didn't bother because he has always, on some level, never viewed Mantle as important. He's always at best turned a blind eye to its neglect and suffering, since the issues in Mantle were long-term ones that took place over years (and even decades of decline).

Likewise, Ironwood not paying attention to Mantle was a core aspect of Salem's entire plan. Watts and Tyrian primarily operated in Mantle, where the lack of security allowed them to cause chaos. The final stroke was Watts turning off the Heating Grid, with the expectation being that Ironwood would turtle-up and leave Mantle to die. Him not doing that almost derailed their plans.

But look at how Salem's entire battle plan played out, once she arrived on the scene. Mantle is in chaos and abandoned by Atlas, which has turtled down and is desperately trying to escape. She hovers around it with her enormous and very showy, intimidating force while setting up the actual initial strike. The River plan working hinged on Ironwood's forces abandoning Mantle and staying focused on the skies, and therefore not noticing it creeping up on them.

The entire plan involving Atlas was a Shell Game, plenty of misdirection and exploiting Ironwood's blind-spot concerning Mantle. It was about keeping him focused on one thing, the obvious "She's going to attack Atlas and Atlas is the only thing that matters" while benefitting from him not caring to look down and realize an ambush was coming.

It's worth noting that, based on the design notes, Atlas's entire military is based on the bottom of the island. The "Donut" as it's called, built into the underside of the rock and where the Vault is situated.

Her plan always involved keeping Ironwood distracted, while the rear danger either came from directly below in Mantle or was a handful of single agents being sent past her Zerg Rush of Grimm.

Because that's the thing Glynda railed about back from the start. That Ironwood doesn't do subtle tactics, he's all about brash displays of force and going all-out. He doesn't consider the need for subtle tactics, for misdirection and trickery. So he's incredibly easy to predict, easy to counter, and very easy to fool with misdirection and bluffs.

Edited by harostar on Mar 5th 2021 at 9:24:10 AM

The lack of security updates for Mantle feels extremely undermined however by Watts just strolling up to the Schnee Manor. It clearly didn't mean anything in the end with how he just easily bypassed all of it offscreen.

I kinda feel like there was originally gonna be some twist there as theyve said there were alot of ideas that didn't make it in. Like maybe Arthur had some connections to the Schnees and knew of the secret passage way into the manor.

Whitley is shown super weirded out by how Watts was there saying he 'Let himself in'.

Edited by Snoketrope on Mar 5th 2021 at 6:48:32 AM

The First man

Disagreeing, especially since that really is comparing Apples and Oranges.

Watts was able to sneak into the city and visit a private residence, but he notably could not break into any civil or security networks in Atlas.

In Mantle, he had full access to and control of all the systems save those exclusively controlled by Atlas (ie: the Heating Grid). He was able to cover Tyrian's killing spree, frame Penny in real-time, and had full control over the essential daily things like traffic control and information networks.

In Atlas, he couldn't get into those systems. Which meant anything he did up there prior to getting Jacques to give him Council Access involved using his personal knowledge of the city and Schnee Manor.

Two completely different skill sets, with different applications in terms of the mischief he could get up to. Likewise, Cinder and Neo were able to sneak into the city but had to keep a low profile. It required Neo spending weeks disguising herself as different people to get into places like the Academy and Schnee Manor, spying and gathering information.

Remember, Watts faked his death and disappeared. That requires a certain amount of knowing how to come and go without being caught by the authorities. So he clearly knew a way to travel between the two cities without being caught, and was familiar with Schnee Manor from his past association/friendship with Jacques. But he couldn't rely on his hacking skills and system controls to do any of that.

So the harm Watts and Tyrian could do in Atlas was limited, and likewise Cinder had to keep a low-profile while Neo did all the work. But they pretty much had free-reign in Mantle, and exploited it to full effect.

Edited by harostar on Mar 5th 2021 at 10:06:22 AM

"Nothing suggests that, were just told that Ironwood told the council stuff that made Ozpin look concerning and got his position "

James took control after the breach, which it is ozpin responsability and he handle that terribly.

"Number 3 was Vacuo. They shifted gears in volume 6 because James screw ups were actively helping Salem and if Ozpin got him to come to his senses James could foil Salems whole plan.. "

Which nobody woudld know, James cant read salem mind and already lionheart turncoat, meaning that as far is concern, salem could atack him any time for now,

"He could have helped mantle first then focused on the tower "

it would end nearly in the same problem: he would steal resource from mantle to amity, someone who have notice it, Ironwood other issue aside of not regarding mantle is that he dosent know how treat people, ozpin know how to do stuff without the other knowing and how much trust someone, ironwood....does not.

"Watts was able to sneak into the city and visit a private residence, but he notably could not break into any civil or security networks in Atlas. "

Sure, but does lessen the whole thing because watts is able to move between places as he like without any issues, hell he only got caught because a near deus ex machina with willow cameras allow people to see him.

Hell Neo and cinder manage to get inside the damn school without a hatch, that is how much the security sucks and it does feel the story is giving a pass to the bag guys because plot demand it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

"James took control after the breach, which it is ozpin responsability and he handle that terribly."

And after James made him look bad to the Council.

"Which nobody woudld know, James cant read salem mind and already lionheart turncoat, meaning that as far is concern, salem could atack him any time for now"

Your kind of ignoring the Convo....I was respondong to the claim James was proven right in regards to what Salem was planning.

"it would end nearly in the same problem: he would steal resource from mantle to amity, someone who have notice it, Ironwood other issue aside of not regarding mantle is that he dosent know how treat people, ozpin know how to do stuff without the other knowing and how much trust someone, ironwood....does not"

.....No? If he's helping mantle that means he's not taking things from them.

The First man

We don't really know what Ironwood actually said to the Council I think? And besides, that's hardly a point against him when just truthfully reporting what happened would make him look bad.

Yeah, ozpin handling of thing in V1 and 2 is really kind of terrible, james stuff work against it but at least it was something, ozpin just.....stay there.

Also is weird to argue the idea of sacrifing fria when it was clear she was going to die ether way, I mean ozpin machine to transfer aura amber to phyrra would have kill her regardless, it is harsh? yeah but is better that leave the power in the open, it was nothing sort of a miracle that fria just die with penny close to her.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Because there is no indication of any council member asking James about it, the indication seems to be James just made Ozpin look bad so he could get his position with things.

The First man

Of course, that's the common conclusion when looking for black marks.

Re: Watts showing up at Schnee Manor, we admittedly do not know specifics about traveling between the cities and the norms of moving about.

We know that travel between the kingdoms is locked down, but there's no real information concerning how closely they are monitoring travel between Mantle and Atlas. (Which seems to be routine and normal, as people go back and forth for business and work.) We also see from this volume that Atlas (the city) does not have much in terms of emergency planning and the people literally don't know there's a crisis going on until the Grimm are literally in the city and Ironwood evacuates them into the subways. (With, again, no shelters or provisions or protection for the citizens.)

We also know from some of the design notes that Schnee Manor is not located in the city itself, but on the outskirts with a massive estate. It's a large property that clearly cannot be reached via public transportation, and requires private transportation such as a vehicle or an airship to reach. More importantly, Schnee Manor isn't connected to the Academy or the Military installations. It wouldn't be something Atlas military would be monitoring, since it's a private residence and not connected to what Ironwood is focusing on protecting.

We know that Watts and Tyrian traveled to the kingdom via a small personal airship. Presumably, they had a means to bypass detection by the military similar to how Weiss got a smuggler to get her out in Volume 4/5. And once they were in the kingdom, we don't know how closely Atlas is monitoring the daily coming and going of ships that were already allowed into the kingdom.

Basically, there's huge security flaws simply because Ironwood and Atlas are incredibly arrogant. They don't expect to be breached, and so they don't really prepare for the possibility of it. And Watts helped design a lot of Atlas's security, so he's intimately familiar with what will be heavily monitored versus what will not. A private citizen's residence outside the city isn't going to be as difficult to get near as the Academy.

Volume 8 Chapter 11 Thumbnail, Title & Description [1]

Title: Deliberation

Description: With Mantle's fate looming overhead, sacrifice seems impossible to avoid.

Length: 19:47

Random Fridge Horror involving theories of the Relic of Creation being able to revive people.

Reviving someone would mean their continued existence would depend on the Relic remaining inactive and unused. The instant it was used, the person would cease to exist ala the Gods reviving and destroying Ozma.

They would basically be dependent on the mercy and discretion of whoever had possession of the Staff.

Also....that would certainly be a way to deal with Atlas. Salem getting her hands on the Relic could mean using it to hold Atlas hostage, since it would fall the instant the Relic was used. That's a pretty standard tactic for a Big Bad to have minions that serve them because their lives are literally held as collateral.

Ah me sitting here in Much Fear since Neath was all don't spoil!!! because this episode had some big events.

Edited by harostar on Mar 5th 2021 at 11:47:04 AM

"Your kind of ignoring the Convo....I was respondong to the claim James was proven right in regards to what Salem was planning. "

James was right in that salem did target atlas alone since mantle was a distraction, what he was wrong in the idea salem will got for him right away intead of atacking mantle.

".....No? If he's helping mantle that means he's not taking things from them. "

He wants amity to be up, he need resource, amity is a top secret proyect, he will take stuff from mantle, someone will notice, something will do something about it, he will tight control because he see amity as more important means he would take resource for mantle sooner or later it, specially since you to prove james white mantle need security and leave the idea of amity lack while salem can do something very soon.

"he issue with atlas security flaws is that it only help the villians, the hero didnt use it even when they probably should and even them neo and cinder got inside the whole damn academy, which is glaring given cinder face is know and her arm is grimfy, theyjust walk it"

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Neo was the one that entered the Academy and got into Ironwood's office. We can deduce this based on the officer Neo disguised herself as is one we see repeatedly interact with Ironwood including in his office. So people wouldn't notice if someone that regularly reports to the General was around his office.

Cinder just had to wait outside for Winter to run off to Fria's location.

---

Thinking further on the Relic, whoever gets it basically has Ironwood by the balls. I mean we know the heroes probably aren't ruthless enough for a bluff of Mutually Assured Destruction, and Robyn probably isn't as well. But the villains certainly could threaten him with it.

Part of me wonders whether Ozpin might be capable of pulling off the threat, though.

Edited by harostar on Mar 5th 2021 at 12:02:45 PM

"James was right in that salem did target atlas alone since mantle was a distraction, what he was wrong in the idea salem will got for him right away intead of atacking mantle."

I don't think you understand, This has nothing to do with The mantle issue. It was the claim Atlas was the 3rd Acadamy planned to fall.

"He wants amity to be up, he need resource, amity is a top secret proyect, he will take stuff from mantle, someone will notice, something will do something about it, he will tight control because he see amity as more important means he would take resource for mantle sooner or later it, specially since you to prove james white mantle need security and leave the idea of amity lack while salem can do something very soon."

Once again

He could help mantle and then work on Amity.

The First man

Taking on a top-secret project while your basement door is wide-open is kind of a dumb thing to do. You deal with the security risks before you take on anything sensitive and significant.

x6 That very subreddit is saying it's a fake thumbnail, though.

Probably for the best. It looked like it was going to be a slow episode from the thumbnail.

Neo is okay, but cinder was already there waiting her time doing nothing while neo was doing errands, she was already side of atlas and probably inside the academy.

"You deal with the security risks before you take on anything sensitive and significant."

That was a issue of time, fixing mantle and reforcing meaning delaying amity and working on amity mean to antagonize mantle seen resource that goes for mantle will got for amity and people will think "what the hell are you doing" after all those material for amity will come somewhere.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

The only time we see Cinder outside the apartment was when she was tailing Winter. It seems that Neo was doing all the work, since we see her at Schnee Manor and the Academy gathering intel.

We know that Neo located and attacked Oscar to steal the Relic, but we only see Cinder at a window watching Winter leave the Academy. So from that, it's more likely that Neo went into Ironwood's office while Cinder stayed out of the way. No one would notice Neo, using the appearance of someone that belonged there.

It would also add to the tension between them, since Neo was pissed off enough at Cinder to steal the Lamp. Neo did all the work, while Cinder tried to take all the credit.