Cobra Kai

It's not as simple as "just teaching them to defend themselves". It's the philosophy itself that's the problem. He's not teaching self-defense. He's just teaching them combative moves and aggression. Martial arts is more than just combat and that's something Johnny didn't get. Hence why those he teaches all turn into thugs.

Focusing just on the idea of "You're enabling these disadvantaged people to protect themselves" is short-term thinking. He's just teaching violence.

I'm so glad the story goes as it does as the earlier parts made me worried that this side of the equation might be forgotten for Johnny just because people are empathetic of underdogs and how he does teach it glorified.

He's not actually THE Miyagi. He's a wannabe Miyagi. Really, one thing I love about this series is how it plays with the expectations and tropes. The new kid is what Daniel would've become if he was trained by Kreese. Johnny tries to be Miyagi, but ultimately continues the cycle Kreese began because the mindset itself is toxic. And, of course, Ronny becomes the true Daniel of this series because he receives proper guidance from the person truly capable of continuing Miyagi's legacy, who actually understands the full equation.

At any rate, martial arts is more than just being able to fight back effectively. Johnny didn't get this and that's what's dangerous about him as a teacher. He's a mentor who doesn't realize the truth of what he's teaching.

And found something which I first learn when studying martial arts.

Lesson #1: Do Not Forget That Karate-Do Begins and Ends with Rei

Rei is often defined as "respect", but it actually means much more. Rei encompasses both an attitude of respect for others and a sense of self-esteem. When those who honor themselves transfer that feeling of esteem - that is, respect - to others, their action is nothing less than an expression of rei.

It is said that "without rei there is disorder" and also that "the difference between men and animals lies in rei." Combat methods that lack rei are not martial arts but merely contemptible violence. Physical power without rei is no more than brute strength, and for human beings it is without value.

It should be noted that although a person's deportment may be correct, without a sincere and reverent heart they do not possess true rei. True rei is the outward expression of a respectful heart.

All martial arts begin and end with rei. Unless they are practiced with a feeling of reverence and respect, they are simply forms of violence. For this reason martial arts must maintain rei from beginning to end.

Also, #2 lesson I learned, which reflects well how much Johnny is unfit as a sensei...

There is No First Strike in Karate. A sword must never been recklessly drawn. In karate, the hands and feet can be as deadly as the blade of a sword. Thus, the principle extends to avoid the reckless use of weapons. It underscores the absolute necessity of patience and forbearance.

A martial arts STOPS fighting, not encourages it. This is why Miguel's progressive turn is the logical one. He's never taught this. He, nor Johnny, gets things like mentality over technique or that karate goes beyond the dojo.

I can go on and on as this is something this is something important to me, but yeah. I agree that Daniel ISN'T perfect. I agree that Johnny is trying to become something better too and I think that's important. However, Johnny lacks rei. Cobra Kai's inherent philosophy encouraged a lack of rei. And it's something that's best stopped, before it can harm more people.

edited 5th May '18 11:25:26 AM by Prime_of_Perfection

Hoo boy, that is one major can of worms there. In the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu world, we tend to not view martial arts that way so much as “be practical.” The martial arts are a tool, not a code. The lifestyle that develops around them is where the moral code comes from.

On the Season 2 kick, my prediction is Kreese is going to try to get more control over the Cobra Kai dojo, or get Miguel into an Expy of the UFC for the massive exposure for Cobra Kai. I don’t think Kreese ever gave up on his goal of a Cobra Kai franchise. Johnny will naturally be horrified at this.

I'm only half way through the season, but if You-Tube Red can put out more stuff like this I think it can legitimately hang with other paid streaming services.

I am loving it so far. Where was Johnny when I was in High School? I'll freely admit that sentiment may be misaimed fandom, but few things would have made me feel better than applying Cobra Kai to my antagonists.

As much as this rei thing gets brought up, what solace can there be in balance and mysticism to those being crushed?

@Nick the Swing That's a misunderstanding of the full picture of martial arts. I never said anything against self-defense or the defense of others. Hell, Daniel puts it best that you should be ready to fight. That's part of learning martial arts.

Balance means 'both' sides of the equation. Not too much passivity, not too much aggression. Or, hell, to reference another philosophy that sums it up well, part of the mastery of power is knowing when not to use it. Lacking that, well, you're more likely to become the person who accidentally punches someone you didn't mean to because you're lashing out at someone because you're upset. And then make excuses and rationalizing why you did it.

That's part of the issue, really. It's turning a blind eye to the hazards.

The fact Misaimed Fandom comes about is part of why I see Johnny's mindset dangerous. It's easy to empathize with. Hell, I admit I can empathize with that side of things and don't feel much concern for those who antagonized them first. However, I likewise recognize that's not the only part of the picture. The issue is it doesn't stop at them. They aren't learning when to stop.

Also, a reflection of this opposite maturity shows in how Daniel teaches Ronny about Johnny at the end. Someone like Johnny wouldn't receive that kindness without rei. To expand on the second lesson of Karate-Do, there is no first strike in karate, when circumstances beyond our control causes practioners to have recourse to action, they must respond wholeheartedly and without concern for life or limb, allowing their martial prowess to shine to the best of their ability. It is only when faced with a situation so unbearable that one's ability to tolerate it (or put an end to it without confrontation) is exhausted that you should utilize it. Like, for instance, defending

With regards to MMA culture, there's always been a divide between the older martial arts and it. Personally, I believe in a fusion of things. The martial arts are indeed a tool in and of themselves. They aren't good or bad. It's amoral. How it's used is a reflection of the user's character. Which is why the philosophical side is important. Which is why that's always been a major theme of Karate Kid, going back to the first. Part of the mastery of power is what we choose not to do with it, because of what it costs us. Those who can't recognize the cost of their actions are far more likely to become a danger to those they won't want to hurt. It creates efficient abusers who can rationalize what they do because X clearly always deserved it and they were never in the wrong.

"The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory nor defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants." - Gichin Funakhoshi, the father of Karate.

edited 5th May '18 11:05:59 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

I think your post kind of touches on why Johnny's "style" has such appeal - whereas proper Karate has an ingrained moral code present, replete with lessons on force and such...there isn't any such a notion in Johnny's Cobra Kai. All it says is "there are people who want to hurt you, and you gotta hurt em to make sure they don't come after you again."

Its probably an indictment on me, but that sort of thing has a dark sort of appeal.

That it does. As said, I don't disagree that it has it's appeal since I'm well aware of it myself. That's also part of why I know to reject it. Personal experience wise, I know how it feels being on both sides of the equation, to be the victim of those misusing power and to misuse it in my arrogance. That's why I get the idea of balance and see it as a less mystical thing and more something that's just a practical thing to keep in mind for one's own efficiency.

It basically comes down to discipline. Johnny's style lacks discipline and the results of this are reflected in how things turn out. That lack of discipline and what it encourages is the top concern of Daniel as he knows what it can lead to.

Again, as said, he isn't perfect and through his own actions, when he's not acting with discipline, it shows why it's dangerous. However, the two aren't so similar in the end. For all their similarities, Daniel can actually pull his head out of his ass and leave a positive mark on others. Robby's transformation best reflects this.

Johnny, meanwhile, poisoned his students.

Hell, their differing mentalities and what they're imparting reflect well in how they teach stuff when touching on their differing attitudes. Johnny's take on events from Karate Kid is that Metaphorical Truth version that paints him as the victim while leaving everything out. He treats it as if it's a black and white situation that makes it easier for him to rationalize his own misdeeds. It's only in the end when he sees how he's become Kreese, how he molded people like Kreese molded him, does he begin to have a Heel Realization. He had the best of intentions, and that can't be discounted because the journey to the right path begins with the desire to be there, but what he's teaching and how he does it is still a problem. "Strike first, strike hard, no mercy" isn't encouraging defending yourself. As said, it's promoting being a brute. Approving of that means having to likewise approve of this:

Or

Or grabbing someone's arm and yanking it to hurt to their arm (knowing or not caring about what this can do to them) during a friendly competition because you want to win and are insecure.

That's why I'll always argue against such things. Another lesson I've learned from studying martial arts and karate is mentality over technique. There's this one story got taught which I feel reflects the Cobra Kai's mentality issue as well. To simplify, this swordmaster decides to test the abilities of his children. He calls in the first, who nudges open the door and notices that it felt heavier than usual and, feeling atop the edge of it with his hand, found and removed a heavy wooden headrest that was placed there, carefully replacing it before entering the room. Second son pushed it open and headrest fell, but he caught it and placed it once again in its original place. Third son, who far surpassed his older brothers in technical ability, rushed in and knocked it over. In a reflex action, he drew his sword from his waist and cut it in two before it hit the matting.

The swordmaster passed on the method of swordsmanship to the eldest. The middle one was told that if he exerts himself and doesn't give up, someday he might reach the level of his brother. For the third, told that in the future he will surely cause the ruin of their house and bring shame on them. As for how he would, this carries over into another martial arts lesson that's even brought up in Karate Kid: karate goes beyond the dojo. How one acts in one area can easily bleed into others if one doesn't know how to control it. Again, see the students who, in failing to learn how to control it, allows it to carry over into situations where it shouldn't.

Daniel's take on it didn't blame Johnny and more Cobra Kai's teachings alongside Reese. He became more against Johnny himself when he saw him trying to spread those ideals again and even in the end, once he's back on track, he still insists that Johnny isn't a monster or anything. Just a guy with demons who was lead down a bad path.

Hell, the fact he approached it like this I feel important as well as he recognizes Johnny's humanity. The Cobra Kai school doesn't teach this. And if that continues to spread, imagine how worse things might become. Beyond just the oppression it'll create, their antagonism will just create more victims who in turn will fight against them and create more conflict. They'll feel justified in fighting back and the Cobra Kai justified in their mentality. Thus, it creates disorder.

To add one more bit about the part where you actually put the use of force into action, certain people shouldn't be allowed to just get away with things. Threats that can't be reasoned with, well, that's sadly the place where it's called upon. Defending oneself or others with violence means isn't ideal, but it's preferable to rigid pacifism. It's a nuance type of thing.

Also, the fact that I'm thinking about all this stuff again and able to discuss it makes me all the more glad Cobra Kai exists. I can't begin to say how much I loved this show and I am excited for season 2. I'm hoping the Cobra Kai Dojo's participants can all get back on the right path. Hawk is the one I'm most worried for, as I feel he's gone from one extreme to another. I really want to see Sam more in action and hoping she'll join the Miyagi School Dan's re-opening. ...Well, technically, she's already a practioner of it, but more I'm hoping to see her more active. Plus with Kreese's return and the assurance that the series' themes haven't been betrayed (if anything, just made all the more fascinating to explore through the lens of someone else), I can't begin to say how excited I am for more. You Tube Red, you can have my money for this.

Well with the notion that Johnny's teaching people to defend themselves, the Cobra Kai philosophy is pretty clearly not a particularly good basis for self-defense. Let's examine it:

"Strike first": While attacking first is sometimes a defensive action (Han shooting first in Star Wars), it's pretty rare and explicitly goes contrary to most schools of though in self-defense. There's a reason why most kids will say "they started it" when caught fighting someone. It's to claim they were defending themselves. It's the attacker who would want to attack first.

"Strike hard": If you're trying to defend yourself, then you should only strike as hard as you need to. It's the attacker who wants to hurt someone, after all.

"No Mercy": This one is clearly a poor philosophy for defending oneself. Mercy is exactly what differentiates you from the attacker.

I’m still convinced that Season 2 is gonna have cage fights. And then while wandering around online I found this from one of the latter Never Back Down sequels, (the original of which is a blatant Karate Kid knockoff).

I feel like MMA is this giant elephant in the room now that the main thrust of the plot is going to involve two competing dojos, but you can reconcile them in fight scenes if you know what you’re doing.

There's gonna be a goddamned season two?

Announced last week.

According to Twitter, the dude who played Mike Barnes in Karate Kid III is gonna be in it.

edited 15th May '18 9:39:37 AM by Beatman1

Ah, well.

"Daniel-san. This not tournament. This for real."

I hope they get Hilary Swank in on this too. No idea what her salary is like, or if she's still acting, but A) they already got a character from the first film back, B) this series is weapons-grade nostalgia and, bad as The Next Karate Kid might have been, it wasn't necessarily removed from continuity, and C) it'd give us another perspective on Miyagi from a different student.

Hell, if it were possible, I'd want Jackie Chan or Jaden Smith to cameo too.

And of course, Kreese and his brother haven't appeared yet (far as I know, not in the first two episodes at least)

edited 15th May '18 3:24:17 PM by Soble

I have the weird idea that Kreese and his buddy from Vietnam run Blackwater.

From what the writers have said, they actually have discussed where all the past characters are at now and Hilary is indeed still canon. Though I don't want to include her unless she actually can contribute to the plot in a meaningful way. I care far more about cohesion than I do nostalgia. Plus her film sucked.

At any rate, I'm obviously glad this received a second season as there's clearly so much more to do. I hope it continues to remain true to the actual spirit instead of listening to the Misaimed Fandom.

This was a surprisingly good first season. The second season is the real challenge. Do not screw it up, guys!

While your first options are always to de-escalate and get out of the situation "strike first, strike hard, no mercy" is a very valid basis for self-defence once violence becomes unavoidable. Once it escalates, you're going to have to make a judgement call, and it might be already too late if you're only reacting. And that's hard with an adrenaline dump.

You can of course avoid major damage. One of my instructors tends to just flick someone hard in the eye and just runs past them. Saves you the legal fees .

Cobra Kai is more like some of the more combative forms of Karate, with a technically proficient yet deeply flawed teacher.

edited 14th Jun '18 4:57:24 AM by TerminusEst

I think Johnny teaching Combat Pragmatism is a very good philosophy.

Except, well, these are HIGH SCHOOL KIDS not cops or soldiers.

Arguably, this was Kreese's problem other than being a Sadist Teacher.

Its handing them lethal weapons and not bothering to make it clear they're not supposed to use them save when their lives are in danger or as a display of athletic prowess. If nothing else, having finished the series, Johnny could get these kids locked up when they accidentally kill or cripple someone.

Yeah, basically to sum up the problem with Johnny's teaching is that while he did taught these kids to learn how to defend themselves and gave them the confidence to stand up against their aggressors, he has failed to guide them towards calmer path which basically instead of quelling the rage they have built up from years of bullying he ended up panders to their insecruities and justifying their beliefs that it is okay to pay evil onto evil.

Its kind of like if Darth Vader comes to Earth and decided to take those murderous nerds from the movie The Final and make them his apprentices. And there's your summary of the first season of Cobra Kai . . . actually holy shit that is Cobra Kai in nutshell. Which means that Daniel is Obi Wan, Robby is Luke Skywalker and Kreese is Palpatine.

Right, just finished it. What a surreal experience, watching what is essentially the fallout of a cathartic teen flick from decades ago. It's absolutely spellbinding and I really, really loved it. I liked almost every character, with the three exceptions of Louie, Daniel's fat son and probably the one nerd who never joined, though the latter one had a few good moments.

Basically, I loved everything except the few things I'm going to mention. Everything else was 10/10.

A lot of the problems in the show are outright caused by Diabolus Ex Machina I have to say. The most obvious contrivance is Louie trashing Johnny's car, but there's also Johnny's car getting damaged at the beginning; not that it was damaged at all, or even that it was towed to La Russo auto (since a coincidence that starts the story is a pretty common occurance), but that it was damaged by Daniel's daughter, a detail that doesn't matter until it interferes at a critical point to sabotage everyone (there are at least three characters badly affected by this, Robby, Miguel and Sam).

For one, the defining moment that shows that Miguel has fallen to the dark side of Karate is when he gets in a scuffle with Robbie at the beach. But despite the accusation that he is this because he is a Cobra Kai... are you sure it's not the ten beers he just had? Considering that Miguel prior to this incident has been one of, if not the most stable member of the cast and if anything is the angel on Johnny's shoulder. I could see literally any teen getting into an affray of this nature if they're completely smashed (and I find it hard to walk off ten beers let alone an under-18 who has never drunk before). It would have been far better if the confrontation had taken place over a longer period and for him to not be as drunk as he was for me to take Miguel's heel turn more seriously. Daniel's actually done far more asshole moves over the course of the series and he didn't even need to be drunk (including something that I'm shocked didn't open himself up to an assault charge); and I'm not saying Daniel's the villain, he shows that while he's not perfect he always is willing to listen to people put him back on track; but it is hard to take Miguel's one action as a line crossing moment. The bad guys seem to do bad stuff when they're drunk, basically, while Daniel mainly does his asshole moves while sober.

The show was actually doing a really good job of not making any character do asshole moves just for the sake of it (except for you Louie you piece of shit), but as a result it's hard to get behind the Kais being the bad guys because for most of them, their lives have substantially improved even taking the events of the series into account. It could have definitely done a better job of making Miguel's transformation into an asshole more subtle and over the course of the series instead of just having him have one terribad day. It really feels like the lack of remorse that kills his relationship with Sam is unearned, as is him suddenly now being totally unquestioning of Johnny's words even when Johnny himself is telling him to turn it down (when previously he had always tried to take the least violent interpretation).

Hawk's actually a better example of Johnny's teachings slowly corrupting someone since you can see both the benefits (even at the corruption point he's still better off than he was before honestly) and also the negatives of kind of being a psycho evolve over time, rather than seemingly instantly like Miguel.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Aug 30th 2018 at 7:11:11 PM

Yeah, I really don't see the scuffle with Robbie as being as vile as the show itself seemed to want it to seem.

What are the thoughts on Xander Stone here?

The more right wing fans (mostly concentrated on Youtube) really despise him.

Xander's just the right amount of annoying, wasting just enough of the audience's time both in universe and out with his (well intentioned but corny and overlong) speech that we really do want to see him get kicked in the mouth.

He adds a bit of levity to an episode that desperately needs it; though I suppose you could argue that his empty platitudes are a call-back to the useless school admins that were not doing anything about the school's relentless bullying

I really like this video touching how it does blur things and likewise grabs some good takeaways from things.

My favorite line about how the once oppressed can become the oppressors is because of the link the source of corruption to the identity of the opponents instead of the opposition's flawed philosophy or principles. And how, eventually, the identity of their enemies can become open to interpretation. It's tribalism's flaw.

The dojo reopens April 24.

And we have our first trailer as well.

Is it just me or does it look like Robbie's been working out his back and shoulders, better strength and tone there I think.

Perhaps to prevent a similar injury from happening.