Follow TV Tropes

Following

Lindsay Ellis

Go To

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1701: Feb 7th 2019 at 2:48:08 AM

How about boxing him around the ears, grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and bringing him along? I think the situation is life threatening enough to forgo liberal parenting procedure. grin

Optimism is a duty.
Nouct insert commentary here from an east coast Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
insert commentary here
#1702: Feb 7th 2019 at 11:20:16 AM

It's Lit episode on Greek mythology

Edited by Nouct on Feb 8th 2019 at 12:14:02 PM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#1703: Feb 7th 2019 at 4:30:25 PM

[up][up]How about this being a fairly serious drama and not a comedy where pulling on someone's ear works? Because you seem to be ignoring what kind of story this is? And Robbie is big enough to fight back against such an action (because his is the kind of character that totally would and has been doing such the entire movie) and as such, is a fucking waste of Ray's time when he's got a much younger and much less able to defend herself child to think about.

[up]The link is broken or something because the video isn't showing.

Edited by AceofSpades on Feb 7th 2019 at 6:31:12 AM

Nouct insert commentary here from an east coast Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
insert commentary here
#1704: Feb 8th 2019 at 12:15:13 AM

yeah for some reason PBS deleted and reuploaded it

Fixed the link now

HottoKenai Since: Aug, 2016
#1705: Feb 8th 2019 at 8:45:21 AM

It's Blazing Saddles 45th anniversary and some idiot celebrity decided to bring out the "you couldn't make a Mel Brooks movie today" garbage take, so Lindsay has decided to grace us with a ~ * ~ thread ~ * ~. You can read it all in one post here

     Tweets transcript 
So I've been seeing a lot of the “Blazing Saddles could never be made today because of the PC police” Discourse today. Okay, fine. Let’s go ahead and dignify this with a ~ * ~ thread ~ * ~

Could BLAZING SADDLES or something similar be made today? NO. Here's why. Rather, it’s not that BLAZING SADDLES could not be made today - you could make it, it would just land with a deafening thud. Because the observations are tired and the execution is gratuitous and crass - but importantly, it is gratuitous and crass in a way it was not in 1974. As we have discussed before, comedy is a tricky genre because it is the quickest to age and the most likely to age poorly. A comedy’s success depends just as much on when it hits as the quality of the writing. The same applies to genre - Westerns were in their Twilight in 1974, and one of the most pervasive genres in all of film. So the film is just as much a sendup of the dying Western as it is commentary about race. Also, people seem to forget that BLAZING SADDLES was released LESS THAN A DECADE after the Voting Rights Act was passed. The United States had just gone through a very rapid shift with its relationship to race. Moreover, Hollywood did not really know how to approach portrayals of racial hostility in film, even though it was topical af. This very rapid shift in social mores lead to a broad sort of discomfort in Hollywood, which happened to coincide with the collapse of the studio system. That collapse and the failure of multiple big budget projects (looking at you, DOCTOR DOOLITTLE) was a major reason why you didn't see movies like SADDLES before the mid-1960's - experimentation in film transgression was only allowed after the "mainstream" began to fail. The highest profile example of a high profile "let's talk about race" film before BLAZING SADDLES that actually FEATURED a Black protagonist (we’re ignoring TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD for several reasons) was IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT. IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT… it’s like, you know, it’s fine. But it’s a very, straightforward, borderline “racists and Blacks learn to get along” narrative in the vein of GREEN BOOK. It is a Drama that has Serious Things to Say About Race. (also BONNIE AND CLYDE was robbed) So reason #1 BLAZING SADDLES would fail today: comedy about race was only just hitting the mainstream. As we observed in the video about Mel Brooks and THE PRODUCERS, farceur is sometimes necessary to really cut to the bone of difficult issues-that is BLAZING SADDLES’ innovation. This is also where BLAZING SADDLES differs from IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT - IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT portrays racism as cruel, but fixable. A logical fallacy, if you will. There’s a redemption element in SADDLES as well, but racism is fundamentally absurd. And it is never portrayed as a harmless kind of absurd, but just fundamentally illogical, stratified, and shameless in its exploitative nature. Like the goofy Nazis in “Springtime for Hitler”, racism in SADDLES is neither cool nor aspirational. (and because I have to tediously acknowledge this every time I talk about BLAZING SADDLES, yes I KNOW it is extremely tone deaf with regard to women and gay people. Stop "educating" me that every time I talk about this movie. I'm talking about its portrayal of race chrissake) (agh bear with me - I'm trying to upload clips but Twitter is just doggedly refusing to cooperate) (HOKAY gdi I had to do this in Tweetdeck) - The joke in this scene is that the “simple” white folks of Rock Ridge are willing to accept Sheriff Bart, but only after he eliminates a major threat, and only if no one else sees them doing it. (CW: this clip has racial slurs) This is just one example of the sort of “Truth to power” humor in SADDLES - the joke is at the expense of the white audience, not only pointing out the woman's hypocrisy but making a joke out of it. That was a fresh take in 1974 - not so fresh today. So Brooks is correct in that good comedy speaks truth to power, but the power in this case is white hegemony. This film DOES state an uncomfortable truth, very explicitly, in a way that drama cannot - and that transgression made the film more honest. In this scene, Taggart’s explicit statement of genocide against all non-whites is the JOKE, but not one at the expense of the people being killed. That it is comedy allows it to be blunt in a way that dramas couldn't be. (CW: this clip has several racial slurs) The observation that “Blazing Saddles couldn’t be made today” is the most tired, unoriginal thing and I’ve been hearing it ad nauseam since the 90’s. It is the sort of thing espoused by people who believe the real problem is the PC police, not the structure of white supremacy. It ignores the many complex contexts and trends the film came in the midst of that made it feel fresh at the time. Yes, I am aware that Brooks himself has oft repeated this line. And I do think he doesn’t realize he’s contradicting himself. In the most recent regurgitation of this line in 2017, he calls the culture “stupidly politically correct,” but then immediately contradicts himself by making a list of topics that he thinks are not funny and never will be and he will never joke about. Mel Brooks: ‘Blazing Saddles’ Would Never Be Made in Today’s ‘Stupidly Politically Correct’ Culture Mel Brooks doesn't think Hollywood would make "Blazing Saddles" in this current "stupidly politically correct" climate. https://variety.com/2017/film/news/mel-brooks-blazing-saddles-pc-culture-1202568893/ Even in the example of BLAZING SADDLES, he's made it clear in multiple interviews that the image of a black man being lynched was a line he would never cross. Even something as subtle as the “Bart almost gets lynched” scene - note that every man in line behind him is white.

So the idea that “oh, no, now there are tribes we will no longer offend!” while immediately going on to list lines he would never cross is contradictory and, yes, hypocritical. @PF Tompkins outlines why on a thread embedded in the Variety article. So the mindless regurgitation of the line about how “The PC Police say we can’t do movies like BLAZING SADDLES anymore” is so disheartening because it shows that the only lesson these people took from the film is “white people yelling the N-word is funny.” Spike Lee has criticized the film for that - less the intent or even the execution, but what audiences (especially white audiences) take from it. That audiences take it not as a critique of white hegemony but as a free pass to say the N-word and laugh about it. Because, let's be real, when people like Rob Lowe bemoan that we would NEVER see a movie like Blazing Saddles today, what they mean is "boy I do miss the days when you could cram your movie full of the N-word with reckless abandon for literally any reason" But that era of film never existed. The vast majority of the history of race in film before BLAZING SADDLES centers white characters, and betrays extreme discomfort with white culpability. Noteworthy also that BLAZING SADDLES did not start a trend, because it couldn't. And I never wanted to admit it before but honestly? Spike Lee was right. Clearly, way too many people didn't "get" the object of ridicule in SADDLES, and just use it as yet another cudgel of oppression. But don't worry, it's just a joke. Anyway, BLAZING SADDLES has always been and will always be one of my favorite movies, but it does get really tedious that it's been twenty years of people boo-hooing that we can't make the film today like it's some kind of fresh take. Good lord, it is not.

Gonna link her video here in case anyone haven't watched it yet

At this point, I honestly wondered how many people could read these complaints as anything more than "white people wanting to say the n-word without repercussions". These are the same people who use South Park or Louis C.K as excuse to say f*gg*t.

Edited by HottoKenai on Feb 8th 2019 at 11:54:41 PM

Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. from the lupine den Since: Jan, 2001
This is going to be so much fun.
#1706: Feb 8th 2019 at 9:36:42 AM

It's really a shame there are certain people who simply take the movie as is at face value. And yeah, more often than not people never contextualize what they consume.

Death is a companion. We should cherish Death as we cherish Life.
Brandon Not a cat from Meribia Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Not a cat
#1707: Feb 8th 2019 at 2:57:30 PM

I'll be honest, even ignoring the unPC-ness, I always considered Blazing Saddles to be one of Brooks' weaker films, along with History of the World.

If I had a nickel for every film where Emma Stone falls off a balcony... I'd only have two nickels, but weird that there's two of them.
Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1708: Feb 8th 2019 at 3:59:25 PM

Also do people forget that stuff like Tropic Thunder and Sorry to Bother You ... exist?

Lyendith I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane! from Bègles, France Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane!
#1709: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:09:28 PM

Or Blackk Klansman, kinda…

Flippé de participer à ce grand souper, je veux juste m'occuper de taper mon propre tempo.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#1710: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:45:56 PM

Basically, films like Blazing Saddles do get made, it's just that (as Linday's rant described) they're not the cutting edge hot stuff they were during the mid-70s, so they tend to get written off or overlooked.

In the same way that people don't really take special notice of films that have colour and sound these days.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Feb 8th 2019 at 12:52:16 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#1711: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:52:05 PM

Tropic Thunder is a different beast than Blazing Saddle, in that it's a movie mostly about Hollywood and its culture. And while yes it has some spiffy racial commentary as part of that (Namely as it comes to terrible racial casting, and of the demand for black actors to act according to expected stereotypes), those are different angle to the movie's actual critique of Hollywood. Not the core of the movie.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#1712: Feb 8th 2019 at 6:56:24 PM

I'd also say that all three of those movies are discussing race in a way that's relevant to what's going on right now as opposed to the seventies. Which means you're not nearly as likely to hear people dropping the n word every five minutes. I mean, Ellis says in her article about the movie that making Blazing Saddles today would say nothing new, which means that people making movies in that vein need to be talking about race the way we're talking about it right now or it just won't hit right.

DoorCurtain Since: Nov, 2017
#1713: Feb 8th 2019 at 8:13:39 PM

I enjoy Blazing Saddles but there's definitely a caveat that you have to do so around the way it depicts women and gay people. But Lindsay already acknowledged that, and so do I when I give it the occasional rewatch.

Also, I just noticed the page number we're on.

Nice.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#1714: Feb 9th 2019 at 4:46:22 AM

I tried watching Blazing Saddles with my then-girlfriend a few years back. We couldn't finish it. We just didn't find it funny, either of us. I dunno, I feel it probably hasn't aged as well as its fans like to thinkt.

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#1715: Feb 9th 2019 at 10:43:44 AM

It is even more trite that people parrot "it can't be made today" since it doesn't have to. It already exists, and to my knowledge, it is available to still watch. But of course, the real complaint is that you wouldn't be able to do it without criticism. It really is funny how the people who talk about the "pc police" and how people are "overly offended", are so desperately scared of being called out.

Side note: I've never watched the movie, but I have the sinking feeling it is similar to The Boondocks in style and tone.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1716: Feb 9th 2019 at 11:32:58 AM

Already existing has never been a deterrent to anyone. Some famous books have literally DOZENS of adaptations. War of the Worlds being one of them.

Optimism is a duty.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#1717: Feb 9th 2019 at 11:41:34 AM

Specially is something aged or the quality kinda decay in general, also what people want is a edgy, not giving a fuck kind of comedy which is hard to do without sounding edgy.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#1718: Feb 9th 2019 at 1:20:46 PM

[up][up] And Blazing Saddles isn't a book. People have mentioned many times that there are works that have the same sort of satire and social commentary, so spiritual adaptations already exist.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1719: Feb 9th 2019 at 3:09:31 PM

Oops, sorry, I thought we were still on Wot W.

Optimism is a duty.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#1720: Feb 22nd 2019 at 3:43:11 PM

Since Lindsay's taking a few months off due to her colleagues having a baby and expecting a baby respectively, I thought I'd include this thread she made on twitter which also links to an interesting video from a talented creator.

Lindsay Ellis

@thelindsayellis

2 hours ago, 6 tweets, 2 min read Read on Twitter

This is so good and necessary. So many times I've seen creators of marginalized identities (and content featuring marginalized characters) held to an insanely higher standard of purity.

I have discussed this with several authors and content creators, who have deliberately de-diversified their work in recent years, because they know being held to a much higher purity standard than white guys writing about white guy things just isn't worth the hassle.

But few are willing to have these discussions, because the second you point out something like the double standard held for marginalized creators, you get hugboxed by bad faith pepes looking for ammo against SJW hysteria who are eager to welcome you into the fold.

But I can't tell you how many times, for instance, I've seen people in [marginalized] community informing me that (other [marginalized] person) is bad at being [woke]. *Me*. Like I have any authority on the situation or am less problematic. No, I'm just held to a lower standard.

But at the same time the lowest standard is applied to straight cis white men, who are perceived as being the most neutral and being the least biased. Like Pop Culture Detective does great work, but he would admit that he's held to a much lower purity standard than any woman. Anyway you dummies need to quit calling Rebecca Sugar a fascist. Lemon OUT

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#1721: Feb 22nd 2019 at 7:21:54 PM

Rebecca Sugar might not be a fascist, but ending your heroe’s conflict with a genocidal tyrant b having him teach the tyrant to love herself is still insanely gone deaf.

Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1722: Feb 22nd 2019 at 9:46:51 PM

tbf it's not like she's the first creator to use that trope

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#1723: Feb 22nd 2019 at 11:09:06 PM

That sounds like the ending of Return of the Jedi and The LEGO Movie.

Much of the time, as demonstrated in the latter film, those scenarios aren't meant to be literal. Many young children don't have the contextual capacity to understand genocide or dictators, so they project supervillains on people they recognize in their own setting, such as parents. So scenes about "reconciling with the big mean bad guy" tend to really be about "forgiving Mom or Dad even though they seemed mean because they told you to spit that cool thing out of your mouth".

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 22nd 2019 at 11:12:38 AM

DoorCurtain Since: Nov, 2017
#1724: Feb 22nd 2019 at 11:27:12 PM

Plus it's genuinely unfair to expect a show aimed at families on Cartoon Network to somehow showcase the perfect solution toward megalomaniacal dictatorships perfectly and without mistakes.

Steven Universe works perfectly as a story about identity and people being pushed to deny their own identity, and that's fine by me.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1725: Feb 23rd 2019 at 1:40:00 AM

Then that would indicate that these shows are not capable or willing of handling that subject properly. It doesn't make the solution any less problematic. It is just a justification for why that problematic resolution was allowed to happen.

Optimism is a duty.

Total posts: 6,308
Top