The Good, The Bad and The Spandex: Discussion Thread

We have a number of similar entities, but none *quite* exactly the same so I'm inclined to approve this.

(For the record, these include the Narrative Titans, who created the universe and each embodies part of a "story"; and the gods of the Forgotten Pantheon, who only exist when worshiped and each fills a specific role.)

If anything, I might ask for an explanation of how the Embodiment Entities manifest; is it a side effect of this reality being created by the Narrative Titans? I mean, belief alone cannot be it or the world would be full of boogymen.

This question goes to everyone, not just JumpingFruit, btw.

Oh, one more thing: You do not need to use the Character Sheet format for Concepts. Just describe what they are and how they fit in with the setting.

edited 23rd Feb '18 2:28:40 PM by Sijo

Going by what PQI said in chat, the Pantheon started around 4000 BC, and no new ones have been created since, so there may have been some kind of external or mystical origin to them, not just pure belief. They require worship (acknowledgement of their existence works too but to a lesser extent) to keep their power, but don't technically cease to exist and be a clean slate when they're resuscitated, just dormant (see Kavalarkium, who even while forgotten uses Loophole Abuse to communicate to people in dreams).

edited 23rd Feb '18 3:42:55 PM by Enirboreh

E Es don't need worship, they just need people to know/believe/experience their concept on a (approx) worldwide scale in order to manifest. They are not gods/spirits/fae, but something of a mix. Think the countries in Hetalia, but with concepts.

Since we're apparently in the era of godlike entities, I figure this is as good a time to port the Virtues concept from Spandex as any.

Virtues and the Outside

Definition:

Virtues are the coalesced energies of 'leaked' positive emotions in the Outside. They are singleminded god-like beings of arguable sapience, who have the sole purpose of spreading and perpetuating themselves in the world.

Lore:

As with all mystical energies, the potential within emotions, when unharvested (and little is ever fully harvested in the world), still needs somewhere to go. Hence, the Outside. Less the result of conscious design and more just arising on its own from the concentration of emotional energy, the Outside is where you go if you 'slip through the threads' of the universe. More of a canvas than an actual landscape, the Outside changes forms according to the source of the energy it receives; namely, those of the unconscious mind. Resultingly, it has become a fever dream of sorts, where the laws of dreams reign over those mundane physical rules.

Over time, certain concepts begin strengthening in the Outside, and coalesce into arguably sapient forms, known as Virtues. Being comprised of an overwhelming quantity of a solitary concept, Virtues singlemindedly pursue their namesakes; for instance, the Virtue of Honesty pursues the truth relentlessly, feeling nigh-unmatchable joy whenever it does so.

The denizens of the Outside generally ignore each other, as most are irrelevant to each others' goals. However, as passage back from the Outside to the material world is extraordinarily difficult, they occasionally share ideas and take turns indulging each other, although their patience for things outside of their comfort zones is limited.

Although Virtues could hypothetically force their true forms into the physical world, they rarely have the need (or sufficiently large tear in reality, for that matter) for such an act, preferring instead to grant minute fragments of their power to humans that meet whaterver obscure criteria they set. All such deals are two-way, however; as the human uses their powers more, and brings more power to the Virtue's name, they slowly lose all traces of their personality, and eventually become mere husks for the Virtue's will. Upon death, they are not released; rather, they join their Virtue's legions of servants, which the cults that engage in Virtuous worship rather naively refer to as their angels.

Virtues rarely give out their True Names, for to do so would be to invite a host of meddling magicians into their affairs. Hence, they adopt aliases, usually determined by whatever mythos ends up surrounding them as they influence the world. For instance, the Virtue of Justice is also known as the Eater of Hatred.

All of this said, very little is actually recorded about Virtues; usually, the ones worshipped or noted are the hosts rather than the Virtues proper, although all of the energy involved in the worship is siphoned off to the Virtues regardless.

Influence:

Usually empower suitable individuals on their quests; few survive to completion, usually succumbing to the same singlemindedness that drives their Virtues long before then, and becoming mere husks of themselves.

Shards of Virtues may appear in dreams or similar, and often carry much more power than a mere host, as the subconscious strengthens them. They usually do this to make deals, or just influence notable people.

Virtues despise gods (seeing humans as those to be served, not the other way around), and will (usually individually) prosecute their own crusades against those claiming to be gods.

Although a Very Bad Idea, it's worth mentioning that one can enter the Outside themselves. Virtues are effectively omnipotent in the Outside, and I heavily advise against doing so.

edited 18th Mar '18 11:50:49 PM by Mistfader

Yeah, we are obviously dealing with Jungian concepts here (but then, so did the Persona series.) So, we could use some sort of Collective Unconscious for the Entities and the Virtues to come from. The Outside works.

The question then is: are the Virtues a subset of the Entities?

edited 23rd Feb '18 8:15:32 PM by Sijo

I feel that the Entities would be a subset of the Virtues, not being pure crystallizations of one concept, but embodiments of one "feeling"/idea/concept and all the myths/tropes that come with it. Also, they have a physical form/avatar. And they don't give out wisps of power, etc.

The 'standard' interpretation of Virtues that I was going for was classically good concepts taken to such extremes that they got twisted into evil of a sort. I guess I didn't really specify that, but if you prefer to have all emotions be covered, I can probably work with that.

Personally, I think they're sufficiently different to just be suspiciously similar, but separate entities.

I just need Concepts to be sufficiently different that they don't confuse people.

As for Concept Format, how about this:

Definition: What it is. Be as concise as possible.

History: Origin, events in the past involving it.

Potential: How it affects the setting and characters in it.

Example:

TALOS: ONU-backed anti-terrorist organization. Specializes on hi-tech crimes. Has the most advanced (currently available) technology (so A.I.s and lasers are OK, but not starships or teleporters)

History: Formed in the 1950s to counter the threat of FENRIS. Also a key player against The Alien Invasion.

Potential: Deals with organizations and villains with high technology. Superhumans are not its priority but might help if asked. Often themselves the target of those who want their tech.

Damnit, who open-sourced AIs and lasers to the world at large? OTI was trying its damned hardest to keep those to itself :P

Umm, A.I.s and lasers exist in real life, you know that right? They are still primitive and cost millions, but they exist.

In Super Heroes, you see Mad Scientists and Secret Organizations use them all the time. But they are still not available to the public (too expensive, usually illegal)

In the near future, they WILL be available to anyone (which might be a bad thing- see Cyberpunk)

I was just snarking, but sapient A.I.s definitely do not exist yet, and lasers have yet to be weaponised. That said, giving the global anti-terrorism agency tech a little beyond the bleeding edge isn't exactly without precedent.

The Emotional Entities Concept is approved.

Hello! I am new here! How can I get involved in the action?

Its easy! Pick an ongoing plot and join it, or start one of your own.

This brings an interesting point to mind I'd like to discuss:

Should we have an Arcing Plot?

As much as I like giving the players the freedom to write what they please, things can get- chaotic. As a compromise, how about this:

There will be a single, major menace, lurking in the background -at least at a time. Everything else ties in to it, directly or indirectly. The players are then free to figure out how much they interact with it. The GM decides how the villains react.

Example: a Legion of Doom is behind all of Easton's supervillains. The cabal itself is composed of the more scheming villains. Below them are the villains they send to perform major missions. Below those are villains sent in minor missions or to distract heroes and the authorities. And below them, expendable minions. This is all secret- at the most TALOS and superheroes suspect its existence but even the villains don't know who those on the layers above them are.

Opinions? In particular (and as usual) suggestions for a name are welcome.

Sounds cool!

I sort of like the relatively compartmentalised system we have in place, as it feels like we have several different series of comics/stories set in one place. The whole looming threat idea is interesting, but apart from the standard "muh player agency" point I keep banging on about, that's more of a crisis crossover event than something that should be there 24/7, IMO.

Even when it would happen, I think each overarching plot that affects every character etc. should be run by the players first individually, since it would significantly derail any short-medium term plans they had, instead pushing its own plots into their threads. Again, not a bad thing, but if the players can have a say on every concept that comes through, I think it's fair they have a say on the imminent future of their character, given the style of this RP.

I also think that any notion of disallowing player-run crises should be nipped in the bud, since saying "You can be villains but MY VILLAINS ARE STRONGER!" kinda tips the balance even more towards recommending playing heroes/neutrals :P

You do realize that this *is* a superhero game and the balance should be towards good, right? Its in the genre- yes I know there's been many deconstructions over the years but overall, the idea is "good wins over evil," Hell the only reason I even allow neutral and villain PCs is because I want to be fair to the players, but every genre has its own appeal and superheroes' is their heroics. Were this say, Horror I would totally reverse it and let the players torture and kill as they please. Players need to pick a game they like to play and not ask it to change to their preferences.

As for the Story Arc, I don't mean you HAVE to use it- but I want it as a frame to give meaning to the setting, so that if someone asks "what is the game about?' you can say, "its about this" and it would be true and useful but not restrictive. I'm also trying to limit the pileup of plots that happened recently; if they are at least interconnected, the GM can intervene to make sense of things. Also since the Villain League acts in secrecy a player does not have to refer to it but later the GM can say "Oh that was part of the plan too (or not)." This is very true to comics too, and its fair.

edited 14th Mar '18 12:12:43 PM by Sijo

I have nothing against good triumphing in the end; such is the genre, no qualms there. But OOC disincentivising playing villains because your villain can be as cool as they want but THIS GUY is even cooler and all the plot revolves around him can't be justified with heroes winning in the end :P

In addition, I think restricting player choice by saying something like "if you're a villain you're part of a league now get used to it" is a bad idea, because many villains would prefer to lose on their own over winning with others. I've nothing against a league of villains, but it should be opt-in.

If you want to track things easier, you could approach it from the other angle; instead of restricting plots like this, consider implementing a tracking system, or even just asking people for a rundown in the Discord. You'd be surprised how much that could clear up.

My vote for this overarching plot system remains a no. I simply can't agree with 24/7 crossovers; let everyone's individual comics breathe, man :P

edited 14th Mar '18 2:02:21 PM by Mistfader

Re: the overarching plot

There's no point in having a single overarching league of villains be behind everything because unless they're powerful to the point of being multiversal gods there will always be villains. more powerful than them out there.

The other thing is that many villains - the 303, Marah, Vitruvian's shadow-cabal of wacky weirdos - clearly aren't working for or with anyone but themselves. Unless you want to come up with all the villains on your own, Sijo, it's easier to just have different people control different plots. Even right now things aren't actually that chaotic, there's only 3 real plots going: Kurtzburg High Homecoming, Attack on Selby Mechanics, and whatever the 303 is doing.

So an overarching plot really doesn't make sense for this game. Just my 2 cents.

First of all, I'm not inventing villains that are "better" than yours, I'm just trying to bring a sense of order to this game.

Second, I think a Legion of Doom fits perfectly into this game,they don't have to be behind everything but they should be part of the World-building and be used or not as each player wishes.

Finally, I just believe this motivates players. As a GM the question I hear the most from newcomers is "what's the plot about?" It would be nice to give an answer other than "a bunch of things."

I strongly believe in this idea as a way to fix some of the problems the game has had, I need constructive feedback here not "eh, I don't like how it sounds".

Right, let's go through those points in order.

Firstly, I didn't mean that it was intentional; I apologise if I came off as hostile or otherwise rude. But GM plots, being more woven into the world, will have more weight to them than player plots, and as we all know, villains generally are the proactive ones; you taking over (large chunks of) plot creation makes it harder to run villains for players, which I believe should immediately be a turn-off unless you REALLY want to make big changes in the RP's structure.

I have nothing against a Legion of Doom in theory; it's a good idea on its own.

Yes, explaining the plot is difficult. In Spandex I, we had a constantly-updated 'plot list' linked on the signup OP which I found to be great whenever I had to hiatus for a month. Perhaps bring that back instead?

Lastly, I've been trying to ensure each post has at least some constructive feedback/suggestions. Hopefully they've helped to some degree.

Sorry if I came across hostile myself, I've not been in the best of moods lately.

Anyway, and to (hopefully) clear things up, let me sum up my points:

• This is a superhero game;
• Nearly all superhero settings have supervillain organizations, because it makes sense that villains (or at least the smart ones) would band together against heroes.
• Even then they are doomed from the start because villains cannot trust each other- unlike heroes. This is why Good wins over Evil, not because it is Celestially Mandated or anything.
• I'm *not* creating any new villains for this organization, at all (yet, anyway.) The idea is for villains to join it (or just work for it, or ignore it, as the Players choose). Its a background to give the setting a sense of order.
• Would I ever use it to manipulate the game? Yes, if necessary, but then as the GM I can already do that. This is but another fictional tool.
• Also: fearing that your character (be it hero, villain or anything else) could be "shown off" by another one is ridiculous. You *never* know what will be created next. Also, remember that all PCs are for all purposes invincible.
• The vast majority of games ARE GM plotted. This one is an exception because I wanted to give you guys more freedom (and also, I had too much stuff in my hands) but it resulted in a mess that stalled and I had to come back and kickstart it.

So there you have it. Clear now? OK I want more feedback.

edited 15th Mar '18 8:27:28 AM by Sijo

The rule about no NPC casualties is...kind of odd. I mean, just considering Crisis On Infinite Earths as an example of the genre we're in, let alone Infinite Crisis.

Jesus, no. Crisis was a "clearing out the house, but it doesn't matter because things will be rebooted anyway" event (virtually every dead character came back, even Supergirl and Barry Allen.) Infinity Crisis was down right sick in its depictions of pointless gore.

Call me old-fashioned, but that's not happening in one of my games. I'd rather quit first.

Alright guys, Sijo quit.

Now *I* am in charge.