South America culture and politics thread

I am curious about that one too, Paraguay isn't a country that gets much screen time and when it does it is promptly ignored.

Lovely page topper!

edited 22nd Feb '16 12:58:32 PM by AngelusNox

The only time I've ever seen Paraguay in media is a level taking place there in Splinter Cell Blacklist.

edited 22nd Feb '16 1:01:59 PM by Bat178

Good ridance. About time the Latin American left have their long overdue comeuppance and get shooked off their clearly undeserved moral high ground.

(That said, it's probably worth noting that in Venezuela's case, you could argue that the left is doing fine because, even if the government is left-wing, so is their opposition (if softier and saner).)

Nobody has mentioned Perú yet, so... yeah, I guess after Fujimori's assholery AFAIK nobody's tried to do anything too crazy there, so things are, like, normal and stuff.

edited 22nd Feb '16 3:05:00 PM by Stormtroper

The alternatives to that in some cases aren't any better.

A lot of politicians that my brother has told me are popular right now are much worse than our equivalent of the left.

edited 22nd Feb '16 2:47:31 PM by wehrmacht

I was being facetious. Have some Polandballs about◊ Best Guay◊.

I like 19th-century Best Guay.

I know the president is called Ollanta Humala (probably spelled it wrong), and there's a terrorist (?) organization called Sendero Luminoso, nothing else.

edited 22nd Feb '16 4:24:56 PM by IFwanderer

Looks like someone needs to have 80% of its male population decimated again!

Uh... I didn't mean to derail the thread when I made that comment :< I mean... This was supposed to be a Brazil-focused thread after all @_@

@I Fwanderer, Achaemenid: Thanks for the information, too bad I don't have the previous knowledge necessary to understand some/most of it. E.g.: the political history of other countries and who all these politicians are.

@Septimus Heap: Sounds exactly like Brazil and the right isn't that weak here :S

@Mercosul: I... almost remember a geography teacher's complaints on why it doesn't work, but I can't quite remember it. Something about not actually following with the accords or something.

@Stormtroper: I have no idea what you're talking about, but as wehrmacht said I don't really see any of the right wing politicians doing bet-wait, no, in fact I see some of them doing worse too. For reference, I have never voted, and at the moment I classify myself politically as abaporu ;P

Spotniks: 5 examples of ideological indoctrination acting in the Brazilian education.

I knew our Education Ministry liked to slip pro workers party rhetoric on educational material, but I didn't know it was this overt.

If I don't get anything useful to do this Friday I'll drop the translation here.

Do you have any other sources backing that one up? And maybe any that try to discredit it? Usually when I see accusations of "indoctrination" in Brazilian schools they are by radical right-wingers that end up being wrong or straight-up lies. And when people argue against it or do anything towards disproving them, they start claiming the other side is lying and has been indoctrinated already, so I stopped paying attention.

About the history book author

Regarding the lack of impartiality on school books.

An editorial discussing the accusations of impartiality on MEC's history books, specially regarding the Lula's government propaganda in history books.

The pictures on the previous article were taken from public school books and there have been several examples of books either praising Cuba and other Socialist/Communist governments and ideology or acting as pro-Lula propaganda.

edited 26th Feb '16 4:08:30 AM by AngelusNox

We had stuff like that during Peron's first government, just more blatantly fascist.

Maybe it's because I clicked your links before googling anything, but doing that is only returning me the same links :|

Regarding the history book you're talking about, it seems MEC cut it off their list as far back as 2007. I did find a news article saying it was still used in schools despite that, however since those news are from the same period, I wouldn't be surprised if the new books hadn't arrived yet or something else due to poor management. Heck, I studied at a federal public school and we still didn't have books for every student (sure, we had ~600 students for each grade, but poor management is poor management).

Regarding that "Escola Sem Partido" movement... It seems to me the movement is more focused on shutting down political discussion (especially speech that disagrees with its other opinions) rather than promoting a fair and "neutral" environment for political discussion in schools. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I have seen people claim discussing racism, gender, etc. in schools is indoctrination, so feel free to prove to me they're a vocal minority, I'd gladly receive those news.

I think one of this guy's relatives is the one trying to put forward the legislation regarding "Escola Sem Partido" in my city. That doesn't necessarily invalidates the notion in itself, but it makes me unlikely to trust and agree with his brand of... law writing? Also, recently, Jair Bolsonaro was claiming MEC was using a French book to indoctrinate homossexualism/defend pedophilia, however that book wasn't even being distributed in Brazil, so I'd take any of their claims with a grain of salt.

I actually have a picture of Flávio and Jair Bolsonaro's flyer from the 2014 elections in my phone, because it's hilarious.

Regarding your third link... I'll try to remember to read it later. I want to have lunch right now.

It's relevant to this discussion that perhaps there is no such thing as true neutrality. In fact, I'd argue that news media, for example, shouldn't "try to be impartial" and instead should fully admit their biases and actively show those so that people may drink from multiple sources while being aware whether they are drinking Coke, soda or Pepsi. Of course, young children are easily impressionable, but if they are to become politically active citizens hiding all kinds of social discussion from them until they are almost adults won't help. Actually, since that would only cover schools, and not everything else, it could even hinder that development. I mean, I have had my fair share of History teachers who are blatant about their political opinions, but well, so I have had non-History teachers be blatant about theirs, and school should teach to consume mindfully instead of mindlessly. I'm almost sure I have heard "you shouldn't just plain trust what I have to tell you" from a young age, although I hardly would argue I have heard that enough. Philosophy class is the sort of thing that helps.

Yes, History teachers I've seen are usually left-leaning, for those wondering about the distinction among History and non-History teachers up there, but of course the subject one teaches doesn't indicate their political opinion

While true neutrality is virtually impossible, having a party currently holding power for a decade and half dictating the ideology of school books, including acting like propaganda towards one of its members while bashing his predecessor, is something unacceptable on education, specially history.

Including exposing issues in the book procurement for public schools being dictated by political allegiance, in a case where a open far left history teacher without a degree in history, won millions over his books being bought and printed by the government to supply schools all over the country.

Jair Bolsonario is an idiot and his policies at their best regressive, but even then the Worker's Party and governist groups still has a lot of shenanigans regarding public education.

Even though teachers have all the right to have their biases, the books shouldn't have any overt or obvious biases. The issue with MEC books is with them being completely one sided towards the same party line rhetoric of the governments main parties.

It is a similar issue when the Texas education board pushed for books white washing the discrimination era and Jim Crow Laws in effect. Where political biases were getting in the way of providing education.

Since no one has given a more detailed situation of Peru, I will speak.

In short…we are screwed.

There are candidates that by all rights should be either in process or banned from ever trying to reach the presidential seat. And yet our judical system is so corrupted that refuses to act even on people who have a dishonest background.

To say some names, we got Alan Garcia and Keiko Fujimori, both with their necks deep in implications or acts of corruption (The former with accusations on giving pardons to people involved in drug dealings; the latter carries the corruption problems of her father and has literally never worked in her life).

Like in other countries, the left is practically dead and the few who are left haven't figured out yet that they cannot identify themselves as red anymore since they will always be associated with Sendero Luminoso, and that drags down the ones who are actually good people.

@Achaemenid

I don't think the US will have many opportunities left, the TPP controversy has alienated many and, at least here, people are growing wary of anything that has to do with the US, It hasn't reached Venezuela's levels but one can feel a degree of animosity.

Not to be fatalistic, but the possibility of a military coup is starting to become real.

True neutrality may not exist, but "approximate" neutrality is a must for public institutions if you don't want those in power abuse that power to get even more powerful.

Don't let the government's stance give you the wrong idea, most people here don't give a blip about how bad (or good) the US government is.

Re: Editorial: interesting read. It mostly complains about pro-Worker's Party bias but does points out other bias that would be incompatible with those, such as calling the 1964 coup d'état a democratic revolution. Without actually taking a look at each of those books, I can't attack or defend them, but it seems that the books' actual bias are being overstated.

@Angelus Nox: Well, the party has been in power for that long because the people voted for them

I would like more sources for that claim about the History teacher who isn't even a History teacher. I'm not saying it is wrong, it's just that as I said before googling only returns me the same links you already gave me :| Either way, assuming it's true, it's a problem that has already been solved, although should dissuade one from support the Worker's Party (which isn't something I need to be convinced to do, as long as there are more options besides Worker's Party and far right).

Anyways, I'll end this reply to you by repeating myself. While the books do seem to have had bias in the past, they've been since changed and I think some biased sources overstate the degree to which they are (overlooking stuff they agree with). Not you or all of your sources, I'm also speaking of other complaints in the same vein I've seen recently.

@Stormtroper: Could you elaborate more? I see your point, but it seems that you might be conflating "lack of neutrality" with "abuse of power" (in this case, propaganda). A priori, I can't agree or disagree that "lack of neutrality" necessarily includes... indoctrination(?), because as I said before I think being aware (of one's own and others') bias is important, if not necessary, in order to educate oneself better. Of course, how to teach children in a jump into another reality altogether, and thus a different subject.

The thing is, propaganda usually isn't openly biased, it doesn't present itself as a mere opinion from one side but as a statement of truth, and work towards making itself believed through means that aren't always legitimate. If you can tell apart bias from things, all the better for you, but not everyone can or is willing to (doubly so if we're talking about children), and that's what propaganda machines count on.

That said, my point wasn't only about propaganda/indoctrination, but use of state resources to favour a political group in general.

Ah, I see. I understand better what you meant now. The way you said it I thought you were still focusing on neutrality instead of more generically talking about the abuse of state resources. Indeed that's a serious issue here in Brazil.

Spot on.

Part of my turf with the Worker's Party is exactly the use of public funds to promote itself, which is something the Lava Jato is currently investigating, the government already spends millions in publicity with no real goal other than to boast how great they are, instead of you know, spending the money where it is needed.

http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2016/02/27/actualidad/1456608633_490106.html

I now is spanish but I coundt find it in english, what did you think about it?

Amnesty International disapproves new Brazilian anti-terrorism law (link in Portuguese).

For those who don't speak Spanish: the article more or less says that the leftist/chavist South American governments are falling because the people of SA are demanding better institutionality and less corruption from their governments. Not because of a "right-wing shift".

And I agree with that point of view.

Yeah, specially since most left wing politicians were elected under an anti-corruption and social reform campaign promises, only to prove they were more corrupt than the other traditional parties and not only failing to deliver the social reforms but managing to make things worse on the long run.

Though in the case of Brazil, I'd say that's debatable. Corruption scanls of massive levels, yes, but what the Lula government did to improve education, hunger and poverty cannot be overstated. It's what makes Lula such a complex character all in all. Despite being smack in the middle of this storm of corruption, he was still a very beneficial figure in some aspects.