Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

I will said the forst order is the problem, as antagonist they are not even imperial remanent but imperial cosplayers who look and act exactly like the empire waaaaaaaay too much and manage to got impresive feat even when their two leaders are losers, it cast down any achivement of the heroes when they are forced to use the exact equiment and tactics, at times this look like a reboot that wasnt rather than a continuation of the franshine

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

...Nope. Not even going to ask how you got there, because I disagree fundamentally on this. Hell, the original trilogy wasn't even based on World War II — it was based, again, on space fantasy adventure serials. The only things that were based on World War II were the bombing runs — Lucas basically did a mish-mash of everything he liked and put it into one franchise.

Trying to say that the Sequel Trilogy is terrible because it's copying World War II from the Original Trilogy is just silly to the extreme.

@Alliterator: You are correct that Star Wars is based on a lot of things, but WWII is one of its larger influences. For example, The Galactic Empire has a lot in common with the Nazis in both aesthetic and ideology, and that's definitely not an accident. Darth Vader's helmet is a Waffen-SS helmet with a gas mask, for example.

Having said that, the main political metaphor being conveyed according to Lucas was Vietnam, with The Empire being a civilization that was once pleasant brought into authoritarianism by a major war and ultimately being defeated by a lower tech militia.

Though two things worth noting is that there's a ton of applicability-I mean, there's only so many ways a nation becomes The Empire. The other thing to note is also that IIRC he came up with the idea some time between episodes 4 and 5.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

There’s way more Nazi Germany in the Empire than Vietnam era America. George Lucas is one of the arch-Boomers, culturally, even if he was born in 1944. The Vietnam references are the shallower allegories next to the way Boomer-era (and thus facile and skin deep) antifascist discourse permeates the first six films and by extension the latter three.

That said, the WWII allegory is way less subtle in the ST, which is on JJ.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Feb 18th 2019 at 2:12:24 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

The problem is that the ST doesn't exists in a vacuum.

Disney can just erase the old continuity out of existance and build what it wants from scratch, but that doesn't mean that the EU and its influence on generations of Star Wars fans is erased.

The EU had the benefit of picking up directly where the original trilogy ended, and build up in "real" time.

You can bet your ass that when losses happened people were pissed back then too. If you knew which circles to visit you could experience the anger.

But the still ongoing nature of the continuity meant there was more to come that fans could place their hopes on.

Sometimes this paid off, sometimes it didn't. But that's the dynamic that was set.

But due to decades of time past between both trilogies, the ST has to pick up the narrative in the future, with a large gap that is being filled after the fact.

A gap that the fans don't experience. What they do experience is the twilight of their old heroes as they pass the torch to this new gen while their legacies crumble around them.

That's why there's an outcry on the killing of Snoke, why there's pushback against the current narrative of the force, etc.

The Last Jedi had subversive elements that captured critics and a subset of fans because of how bold and fresh it was.

But it's bold and fresh only in the context of the movies. Fans that experienced the EU have seen the beats and themes explored in the ST before, some would argue with much more depth.

Snoke being dead pleases all the fans that hate the idea of this Palpatine expy ever being a thing, but because the ST doesn't exists in a vacuum, because there's what the old movies established and what the old EU explored, there's an entire subset of fans for which "forget about him, he is not important outside of being an obstacle for Kylo to overcome" will never be a satisfactory answer.

It's arguable if the divide in the fandom was always meant to be, but the decisions Disney made when they started their universe all but guaranteed it.

The Empire/First Order may have been based on the Nazis (and it does heavily use fascist imagery, including Italian fascism), but the movies itself aren't based on World War II. They borrow imagery from WWII, yes, but that isn't the same thing as basing the actual story on it. The fact that the movies returned to the Rebellion/Empire-style storyline doesn't indicate at all that the movie is saying "You, too, can participate in World War II" because, again, it's not about World War II. What the movie is saying, is, well, "You, too, can participate in Star Wars."

Edited by alliterator on Feb 18th 2019 at 11:31:02 AM

I’ve always viewed the Empire as an allegory for tyrannical regimes in general rather than a specific one. Their’s elements of the Nazis, the Soviets, the Romans, and even some North Korea

You're going to pay a price for every bloody thing you do and everything you don't do. You don't get to choose to not pay a price.

The problem with the First Order is that in between the two films they suddenly expand exponentially. In the OT the Empire was, well, an Empire. They really would have access to all the funds, fleets and soldiers they are shown as having. But the First Order are originally presented as a fringe remnant, a hardcore extremist group but until they produce the Totally-Not-A-Death-Star they are being held back by the Resistance, not the Republic as a whole. Come TLJ and they are sweeping across entire systems and have fleets of Star Destroyers and the single biggest spacecraft ever created. Where did that all come from? It's not totally on TLJ as TFA did absolutely nothing to really establish much about the First Order and it's beginnings but it's jarring.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

Yeah, the Totally-not-a-deathstar even bigger and stronger than the one build by a the much stronger old Empire. Where the hell did they get the resource, did they find a Star Force or something?

E.T technically is a Isekai movie

I mean, they've been stockpiling resources for thirty years. And all those old ships from the Empire didn't just disappear when the Empire did, either. Where do the Empire's resources go when the Empire is gone?

Edited by alliterator on Feb 18th 2019 at 11:19:20 AM

I think i would be better if they make the First Order some kind of Villainous Underdog that don't have much resource but use dirty tactic to have the upper hand over our heroes. That would create a new dynamic for our heroes.

E.T technically is a Isekai movie

I would've liked if the First Order was more of a Space ISIS, than tired and old Space Nazis.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Oh yeah that would have gone over well with modern audiences after all the criticism The Phantom Menace got for how it handled race.

Well we don’t have Lucas onboard anymore so it might go better this time.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

I thought his helmet was based on samurai helmets?

Yeah, if Lucas was still director/writer, I wouldn't even think about such idea.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

A lot of the old EU was about the heroes discovering splinter groups with their own agenda, typically The Remnant of the Empire but some were unrelated. The general impression was that the Alliance is now the big dogs and the Imperial elements were in decline. Even TPM broke away from the concept of "two major factions decide the fate of the galaxy" by focusing the conflict over the fate of one planet, with the other movies depicting two superpowers going at it. Where the sequel trilogy has gone different is pulling back to an overpowering Imperial Remnant and a scrappy rebellion. Imagine if the Sequel trilogy did something like inverting the third act of Rogue One, where the bad guys prove more scrappy than anticipated rather than having a convenient superweapon.

The First Order, based on the initial description by JJ Abrams, is a terrorist group. Remnants of an old Empire who wants to go back to the "glory days" that may not even exist, and use whatever means necessary to get it, even if it's impossible to completely takeover the establish government.

The reason why it falls flat here is that the First Order is portrayed as the Empire instead of a terrorist group. Too much resources on their side, not helped by the fact the Resistance forces are microscopically puny. Even Cobra's limitless supply of 80s technology was at least counter-measured by GI JOE's limitless supply. No such balance here.

Edited by Shadao on Feb 19th 2019 at 3:09:42 AM

Yeah, the whole "the Empire's resource didn't go anywhere" excuse doesn't explain how FO somehow managed to build even bigger weapons than what the Empire had.

Honestly, I feel that the Star Destroyer, or Death Star Mk. III should have been at least saved up for Episode IX.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

But most of those old spacecraft should have been confiscate by the New Republic, apparently they don't thing they should keep massive battle ship out of the hand of terrorist even if they themselves not going to use them.

Edited by BattleRaizer on Feb 19th 2019 at 7:01:02 PM

E.T technically is a Isekai movie

And you know, old weapons, vehicles, facilities actually need a lot of additional resources to maintain and keep them functional.

I think it would have made more sense if FO pulled HYDRA from Captain America: The Winter Soldier, rebuilding itself within the Republic.

Edited by dRoy on Feb 19th 2019 at 9:11:16 PM

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

But then people will complain it's repeating the prequels all over again...

Still, it's better than ST's premise, which goes to show you why Darth Bane's Sith Order is ahead of their time. Why conquer from outside where you're most likely going to be destroyed by the Jedi Order when you corrupt the system from within under their noses?

Edited by Shadao on Feb 19th 2019 at 4:17:18 AM

But then people will complain it's repeating the prequels all over again...

Well, fair point. XP

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

https://www.cbr.com/rumor-disney-developing-several-star-wars-streaming-shows/

Apparently Disney is going all in on live action Star Wars shows. Out of these the only interesting one is the Darth Bane series

You're going to pay a price for every bloody thing you do and everything you don't do. You don't get to choose to not pay a price.

A Rose Tico shown would be the equivalent of a Jar Jar Binks show without the heavy, HEAVY use of self depreciation Clone Wars bought to bear on the character.

Edited by Beatman1 on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:26:23 AM