A nice butterfly
Would this thread also cover immigration waves from other coutnries/areas? Or should we keep it focused on the mediterranean area
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
The title says "global" but it's obviously referring to the current crisis around the Mediterranean. That's a bit of a contradiction. Maybe I should rename the thread: "Mediterranean refugee crisis". Alternatively, we could make it about refugees in general, but that's not where the idea for the thread came from and frankly I think the current crisis warrants its own thread.
Of course, the Mediterranean crisis is global if countries around the world are taking in refugees from the region. (AFAIK it's just Europe and the countries around the conflict zones - well, and the conflict zones themselves, obviously - but maybe I'm mistaken.)
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
There's Bangladesh and the Maldives- that has less to do with war and more to do with rising sea levels
edited 1st Sep '15 3:37:08 PM by Xopher001
Beware the Crazy Man.
It's not just the mediterranean though. You got people going through the Balkans, Eastern Europe, and so on. Also, its not just about Europe, but also the issues migrants are having in Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, et al.
And I'd like this thread to just focus on the refugee migrants please.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
A nice butterfly
What I meant with the question was, for example, if it included Mexican immigration to the U.S.
edited 1st Sep '15 3:50:07 PM by Aszur
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
A procrastination in of itself
I think the global was put in because many of the refuges are coming from far outside the Med, I believe there are folks from Sub-Saharan Africa, Afghanistan and such making up part of the situation. As such it's a crisis beyond the Med, however the focus of the crisis is Europe and the attempts to get into Europe (or more specifically the EU).
Edit: In short, are we including situations beyond the movement of refuges towards Europe and the EU?
edited 1st Sep '15 3:49:32 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Beware the Crazy Man.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No.
Trying to keep it focused on just refugees, or otherwise this devolves to an general immigration thread. So its just the movement of refugees, but it doesn't have to be towards the EU alone. Like I said, I'm including the refugee situations in Lebanon and Jordan (for example). The Rohingya refugee crisis would also be up for discussion, even if they are mostly trying to get into South Asia at the moment.
edited 1st Sep '15 3:59:49 PM by FFShinra
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
That's why I wanted to specify that (I mean, if we agree on this) this thread will be specifically about the refugee crisis in the region(s) around the Mediterranean - where the geographical reference is to the origin of the refugees, rather than their destination. (Of course, it can often be the same.)
Upon re-reading Shinra's posts, though, I gather that this thread isn't about just the Middle East and North Africa. It's about refugees in general. Thus there's no need for a change of focus. As long as we stay in the present and remember not to confuse immigration in general with the specific topic of refugees we'll be fine.
That is, unless I'm misreading again.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Do not be misled by the title of this article: Adrift in ASEAN: Tackling Southeast Asia's Migration Challenge
:
During a visit to one such shelter in Southern Thailand this June, I saw close to 80 women and children housed in a gated compound with clean facilities and outdoor playground equipment. While serving immediate humanitarian needs and allowing children to leave the compound to attend a migrant learning center, such shelters reflect a similar logic as Thailand’s border camps that have sheltered over 120,000 refugees from Myanmar for decades — they are ad hoc and meant to be temporary, offering no prospects for permanent settlement and integration. Also of continual concern is Thailand’s record of deporting refugees despite international pressure to abide by non-refoulement principles, with thousands of Lao Hmong, Rohingya, Khmer Krom, and most recently 100 Uighur Muslims, deported back to countries where they fear persecution.
In Malaysia, the informal economy accommodates refugees, but the state lumps them into the blanket category of “irregular” migrants. While the UNHCR runs a resettlement program in Kuala Lumpur, the over 100,000 refugees from Myanmar (with an estimated 45,000-plus Rohingya) remain vulnerable to arrest and harassment while spending years awaiting resettlement decisions. According to UNHCR staff and migrant community leaders in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysian officials have made verbal agreements with the UNHCR to not arrest those with refugee documentation, though such agreements are not codified in law, and there is much room for local deviation.
When speaking to Kachin refugees in Kuala Lumpur this July, the most common problem reported was that of police extortion. Local police regularly stop them and threaten to take them to the police station, from where they could be sent to an immigration detention center if they do not pay money. The police call those without documents kosong, meaning “zero” in Malay. As one man explained, “They tell us, ‘you are kosong people. We can do anything to you.’” These stops, as well as robberies by local thugs, frequently occur at the beginning and end of each month, when wage laborers are paid in cash. Desperate to avoid detention, the refugees pay varying amounts of money, oftentimes calling migrant community leaders who speak Malay to negotiate release fees. Accounts from refugees and representatives of migrant organizations, NG Os, and the UNHCR suggest that such practices are widespread and regular, enabled by the ambiguous legal status set by the state.
Despite the inhospitable stance of these states, refugee flows in Southeast Asia continue, and a large (though difficult to pinpoint) number of forced migrants work in the places they seek refuge. Though the economic contribution of refugees and other irregular migrants is difficult to quantify given the informal nature of their work and settlement, studies in other locations have indicated positive contributions refugees have made to local economies if given the right to work legally.
While denied such a right, those in Southeast Asia nevertheless find work in countries that are in fact dependent on migrants to fill labor shortages in several sectors. Rohingya men who came to Bangkok as early as the 1990s have sold roti on the streets of Bangkok and worked informally in agriculture, manufacturing, and other low-wage sectors. Others in Thailand, whether living in camps or self-settled, recognized by the UNHCR or not, work in garment factories, local markets, and restaurants. In Malaysia, restaurants along Kuala Lumpur’s tourist Jalan Alor are almost all staffed by refugees, who also find jobs in the large shopping centers throughout the city. UNHCR-recognized refugees in KL appear to be a special category among undocumented workers, as they are protected, however tenuously, from deportation yet still provide cheap and exploitable labor for businesses. If those Rohingya from the recent boats are released from detention centers, many will undoubtedly find work through migrant social networks and lose significant portions of their low wages to police and thieves.
Migrants in Southeast Asia demonstrate significant determination while striving to live safely and earn a livelihood. What choices they have, however, are not easily facilitated within ASEAN state practices, including the current regional integration process. Rather, refugees and migrants resort to an exploitative (and adaptive) shadow migration industry that profits from the demand to circumvent state limits on movement and membership. Attempts to combat smuggling/trafficking as a criminal justice issue, however, will not help the Rohingya and other forced migrants if the denial of access to a state and its protections continues.
While tackling the Rohingya crisis requires changes to Myanmar’s policies, addressing broader irregular migration challenges would benefit from the establishment of standards of refugee treatment among ASEAN states, including clearly-defined asylum procedures, restrictions on expulsion and refusal at the border, and assurances of the right to work. Instead, forced migrants fall victim to instrumental approaches to irregular migration characterized by the power of states to detain and deport unauthorized populations when they see fit and otherwise tolerate their presence as cheap and exploitable workers.
Just in case we end up talking about the Rohingya people.
edited 1st Sep '15 4:34:00 PM by Quag15
For those not lurking in the Eastern European Politics thread: there's a migrant incident going on in Hungary's capital, involving over a thousand migrants protesting at a railway station that briefly got closed down earlier today. The migrants have all been forcibly evicted from the premises and now no one is allowed inside without either a valid ID card or a visa (which most of the migrants don't have).
The migrants have been protesting in front of the building ever since, although they've retired for the night (it's almost 2 AM over here right now). Aside from some minor brawls between a few individuals, there's been no violence. All they've been doing is chanting "Germany, Germany, Germany" and holding signs, asking to be let on their way - which the authorities are preventing after Angela Merkel asked the Hungarian government that Hungary should fulfill its obligations as outlined by Dublin III. Some far-right extremists tried to rile up the crowd but the migrants didn't bite: one migrant held a short speech where he asked his comrades to not let themselves be provoked and avoid violence, "we love the Hungarians and only want to continue on our way". Afterwards, half of the crowd sat down on the square and protested like that.
Yesterday, almost 4000 refugees arrived to Vienna from Hungary. Today, only 150. Austrian authorities have instituted a thorough search of all vehicles crossing the border (straining the boundaries of the Schengen Agreement) after the weekend's incident of 71 refugees being found dead in an abandoned truck sitting on an Austrian highway just a handful of kilometers from the Hungarian border. All six smugglers responsible have been caught since, as well as a handful of other individuals dealing in human trafficking. In one case, police freed ten Iraqis from a car after they heard the poor bastards calling out for help.
All of these folks are headed for Germany. Today, Merkel was asked whether Germany has any responsibility regarding these people; she answered in the negative.
edited 1st Sep '15 4:55:21 PM by amitakartok
A procrastination in of itself
On top of this there's been a continuing crisis at the French-British border, with large numbers of refuges having come though France and attempting to proceed onto the UK, the British authorities are having none of this and the French are generally cooperating in attempting to stop crossings. However the number of refuges isn't going down and the French don't seem to be making any attempt to actually settle the refuges in France, instead they are simply being left in their camp at the Channel Tunnel entrance.
edited 1st Sep '15 5:21:34 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
And yet the French criticize Hungary for building a fence onto the southern border, despite there being a fence at the Channel Tunnel too.
In general, there's a lot of finger-pointing going on between various nations.
A procrastination in of itself
The French fence is keeping the people inside France, it's preventing refuges from moving on to another country.
So the equivalent for Hungary to do would be to build a fence in the north to keep the refuges in.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Hungary is doing the same by not letting the migrants leave now. The only real difference is that France was doing it sooner.
Beware the Crazy Man.
@Best Of - You got it.
So what do you think of all this, personally? What's gonna eventually end up happening?
edited 1st Sep '15 6:57:25 PM by FFShinra
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Hungary, if you don't let them thru, you have to take care of them.
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
It's not the only difference. If the French wall was to keep people from the UK from coming in, and the UK wasn't an EU member, it would be the same. The French wall would be totally unacceptable, though, if the UK was a Schengen country.
There are enough differences that the two cases are actually more different than similar.
Cool.
EDIT:![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
edited 1st Sep '15 7:40:42 PM by BestOf
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
V
Latest from the Channel Tunnel
According to the Eurostar Twitter feed, three of the trains then went on to London early on Wednesday, while two others returned to their original departure stations in London and Paris.
Eurostar had announced on Twitter late on Tuesday that it was holding its trains "whilst authorities deal with trespassers" and then said the trespassers had been spotted on the tracks at the station in Calais. The trains stayed in place as the trespassers were removed from the tunnel and away from the tracks, it said.
Local media reported that the trespassers were migrants attempting to cross into the United Kingdom through the Eurotunnel, also known as the Chunnel. So far this year, thousands of refugees have attempted to make the dangerous crossing.
Passengers on one of the London-bound trains, which stopped less than a mile (1.6 km) from the tunnel, were told at one point to be very quiet and listen for the sound of people climbing on the roof. A helicopter with a searchlight then circled the train as guards walked the tracks looking for migrants, but seemingly none were spotted.
With the power out, passengers on that train sat in the dark for nearly four hours. The heat and mugginess in the cars rose as conductors walked the aisles with wind-up torches. A woman in business class wept and many passengers said they could not breathe in the stifling air.
Eurostar then pulled the train back to Calais, where passengers disembarked for fresh air and bottled water. But when some attempted to leave the station to cross the English Channel by ferry, French gendarmes stopped them, saying that customs and immigration laws required that the passengers return to Paris. However, Eurostar tweeted that the train, ES9055, "is unable to be used to take passengers in Calais back to Paris and alternative options are being sought."
"We've been abandoned on a platform somewhere in the cold with NO INFORMATION," tweeted one of the passengers, Danny Bell. "And enlighten me - at 4am in the middle of nowhere what are those options? For hundreds and hundreds of people?"
Eurostar has offered to exchange tickets.
Spanish Police finds Guinea migrant hidden behind car engine
Sub-Saharan Africans often try to enter Ceuta, as a gateway to the EU. The Mercedes 300 was found to have false number plates. Police detained two Moroccan men who were in the car when it was stopped. It is not clear how long the man in the engine compartment had been inhaling noxious fumes for.
I live in Italy, and here... it's complicated.
On one hand, the enormous wave of refugees coming to our shores is a problem and you can't simply reply with "well, just magick enough money out of thin air to help everyone, they deserve it!".
I mean, even in the rare cases where everybody has good intentions, there are difficulties. A Muslim family from Pakistan has lived for about five years next to my parents, and now their 9-years-old boy is starting to respect female teachers less than male ones, and when summoned to talk about it by the female vice-principal the father refused to discuss the problem and demanded to "talk with a man" instead. And we're talking about a "good" refugee family, with a job and everything.
On the other hand... I'd be happy if the one I just described was the worst kind of problem we face. A significant portion of our population has been driven by economic hardships, manipulation by right-wing politicians (who also control a big share of the media) and sheer ignorance to an extreme and revolting xenophobia. It's a "poor people vs poorer people" mentality that frankly frightens me.
I mean, the leader of the right has been posting images of refugees who died during their journey through the Mediterranean sea with captions such as "at least they won't rape our women" or "at least we won't have to spend money for them" on social media. And his followers cheer. They fucking cheer at the dead people, a significant portion of which are kids. What the fucking fuck. I have honestly no words that can convey how sheerly disgusting this is.
edited 2nd Sep '15 1:29:12 AM by Cozzer
Face-Puncher
While the main focus when it comes to refugees is Europe, over here in Australia, it's also something of a hot-button issue, and has been since John Howard was PM. The current government basically engages in turning back boats and putting refugees in indefinite detention in camps in neighbouring countries like Nauru (though the detention part is nothing new, but the horrid conditions are still a huge deal). Depressingly, Labor has had to avoid ruling out turnbacks in order to wedge the government on the issue. As usual, talk of 'illegal immigrants' and 'jumping the queue' and other myths are being spewed about. The government claims they've 'stopped the boats', but since their border protection operations are veiled entirely in secrecy, there's no way to hold them accountable to such claims.
And depressingly, a big chunk of the electorate supports these kinds of measures.
edited 2nd Sep '15 1:34:57 AM by Cronosonic
Protests renewed at the railway station. Still no violence, but a brawl started among the Afghans when a rumor began to spread that one of their compatriots was beaten by police. Half of the Afghans began to move towards the police but the other half blocked their way. Another time, the Afghans tried to protest with signs, but a group of Syrian youth stopped them and told them that they can't do that.
Most of the crowd is starving. Some volunteers brought two crates of apples, all of it was snatched up in less than a minute. Sanitary conditions are also bad, yet the migrants are not letting the cleaners do their work because they're afraid of the cleaners' police escort taking them away.
Police pulled a skinhead out of the crowd who was trying to provoke the migrants. The crowd expressed their approval with cheering. While being led away, the skinhead made a gesture suspiciously similar to a Nazi salute.
One of the govt's undersecretaries was interviewed by a German newspaper, where he likened the current events to the collapse of the Berlin Wall.
edited 2nd Sep '15 6:58:03 AM by amitakartok
@Cozzer: Wow, that is way fucked up. Both in regards to the family (though still understandable, considering that Pakistan is a heavily patriarchical society) and especially to the right-wing politicians. I have a question: is the Italian side of the Catholic Church helping substantially?
I've been partially following what's happening there. Do we have an estimate in terms of the total numbers?
edited 2nd Sep '15 7:14:43 AM by Quag15
Hmm. I... might not be the best person to ask about that, as I'm very definitely not religious and tend to assume the worst about the Church and other organized religions. I'll give you my personal interpretation of the mechanics at work, though.
The best word I could find is "schizophrenic". On one hand, the "public face" of the Church violently steered leftwards with the new Pope and he has made several public declarations condemning lack of empathy towards refugees, enough to make the leader of the right angry at him.
On the other hand, the Church generally pushes people towards voting the right-wingers (the same who cheer about dead refugees and propose shooting them with cannons while they're crossing the sea, for reference) because of civil rights issues and economical advantages. Basically, anything associated with the Church gets to say a big resounding "fuck you" to anybody suggesting they should pay taxes too. The center and right-wing politicians are careful never to raise the issue and leave this status quo alone, and the Church keeps talking about horrible gays, wrong abortions, natural families etcetera, pushing people to vote those same conservative politicians, who in turn mantain the status quo.
So you have on one hand the Pope condemning what the right-wing politicians are doing and/or stating on the issue, and on the other hand the Church keeping pushing people towards voting those same candidates because of unrelated issues. Whether this is a case of the right hand not knowing (or not having the actual authority to change) what the left hand is doing, or it's all Just as Planned is something that we'll probably never know.
EDIT: Hmm... I've tried to be as neutral as possible about this, but I guess I am pretty bitter. I hope it's not too off-topic.
EDIT 2: Talking about less political sides of the issue, I have no real data but I believe a significant part of the associations who help poor people (which includes refugees) are at least tangentially linked to the Church, and to be fair the Church does give financial support to a lot of them. Though skeptics (myself included) believe that if the Church just paid its taxes, it would be a very definitely better way to support things.
edited 2nd Sep '15 7:42:48 AM by Cozzer
Hundreds at the very least.
The location of the protest on Google Maps:
(can't hotlink because the forum software is not accepting the URL due to the apostrophes). The sat image was taken years ago, while the square was undergoing renovation; it's finished now. There's a large underground section to the square, which has been a migrant haven for months now.
edited 2nd Sep '15 7:51:58 AM by amitakartok
Not since the Second World War has the world had to deal with the number of refugees that we have right now. From Libya to Afghanistan and many in between, hundreds of thousands are swamping their neighbors and Europe (and soon elsewhere) with their presence, desperate to escape the horrors of war.
We've been talking about it in several threads, so I figure it'd be best if we had a new thread dedicated to the issue.
What this thread is not is a general thread about immigration issues. This is specifically about the influx caused by the exponential growth of the global refugee population.
This thread IS for the discussion of news about these events, what's being done about it, and what can (and can't) be done in future about it.
So. Let us discuss.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...