Netflix Daredevil

What would these ramifications and logic leaps be?

FBI taking a absurdly long time to arrive for unaddressed reasons, Matt teleporting inside a impregnable location, Fisk not immediately murdering Karen like he has done with relative ease before. The ramification being that in your scenario Daredevil confronts and gets physically battered by Fisk (after learning about his war room, presumably?) half a season ahead of schedule inside said impregnable compound. By your scenario, Matt would be in FBI custody after being thoroughly battered by Fisk, unless you're suggesting he somehow teleports out of the building without the FBI catching him, which seems a tad ridiculous. The only reason he manages to walk out of the building in the actual show is because A) the building security had been cleaned out by Dex's attack B) the NYPD literally lets him walk away.

There's a lot of wrinkles in it that'd require basically altering the logic structure of the entire season only so Matt and Fisk could have another fistfight.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 9th 2019 at 4:07:53 AM

Yeah, while I do feel the season was somewhat lacking in action setpieces compared to the first season, that scene was very effective on its own and isn't a spot to just insert a fistfight.

@Gaon: I had been more on the idea that "the FBI guys would've forced Karen to watch Fisk batter Matt, then would've taken Karen and Matt and driven them somewhere remote to be killed. There'd be no "taking Matt into custody" (my logic: when it came to getting Karen out of the church in episode 11, Nadeem had cautioned Brett that Karen would be dead before she reached the FBI office if the FBI took her into custody, which to me at least, implied that Dex would've taken her to one of those warehouses at the docks, killed her, then dumped her body in the Hudson), they'd be taking him and Karen to a warehouse to kill them. I mean, that's how Matt's confrontation with Fisk went in "Born Again" went.^note Matt confronted Fisk. Fisk beat him senseless, then had his men try to kill Matt and make it look like Matt beat a cabbie to death, stole the cab and went on a blind joyride into the East River. Somehow. Honestly, this show definitely took a wiser approach to the cab drowning: have Fisk's henchman get the cab up to speed, then bail out and let the driverless cab fly into the river. A lot simpler than the elaborate cover-up of "Born Again"

Speaking of things we can all wish we'd gotten, I kinda wish we'd had at least one fight between Matt and Dex where Matt was the victor because in each of their three big fights here, Matt doesn't win any of them (he got incapacitated and knocked out in the Bulletin attack, Karen dealt the finishing blow in the church fight, and Fisk took Dex out of the final fight by breaking his back). I'll assume that was gonna be an idea for Season 4 before they canned it (assuming the petition, which has reached 146,000 signatures as of this posting, doesn't get any studio heads to renegotiate contracts or money to change hands). In fact, in such a hypothetical season, I could see them having Karen kill Dex, leaving Matt’s hands clean from killing and providing a nice reversal from the comics. (She’d likely be killing him out of self-defense or for Matt’s defense.)

Eh. I'm still kind of with Gaon and Anomalocaris on this. I wouldn't mind a few more big fights in the season, but not necessarily between the Kingpin and Daredevil, and not at the expense of Karen's big verbal showdown with Fisk.

Like I said before, I just think we needed at least one more midboss sort of character who Matt could have fought in the first third of the season or so. The equivalent of the Russians or the Kitchen Irish. Technically the jail fight was that, and don't get me wrong, that was a great setpiece, but it didn't have quite the same buildup or sense of catharsis, because Matt negotiates with the Albanians and barely makes it out alive. There just needed to be a solid one-on-one duel somewhere in the first half of the season. All the better to establish just how good Dex must be during the Bulletin shootout, really.

What I think was really needed was a proper final fight between Matt and Dex, before the climax. In fact, I think the climax should have been Matt and Fisk alone. Dex should have been taken out earlier and personally by Matt, as should Fisk. He's Matt's villain. Dex just kinda got in the way.

It would also be a good excuse to have Matt back in costume for the climax, but that's a personal bugbear of mine, not something that harmed the show itself.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Jan 9th 2019 at 1:04:58 PM

I could see that working better. Really, the three-way fight between Fisk, Dex, and Matt is a good idea on paper, but I don't think the choreography was at the level it needed to be for that scene.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 9th 2019 at 8:35:26 AM

I'm down with a three-way final battle, but the one we got felt sorta lacking.

The punches they threw lacked the same 'oomph' they had in the Daredevil-Kingpin alleyway fight. Even Kingpin ramming Bullseye into the wall didn't feel like a decisive blow. I was waiting for him to get back up, and didn't realize he was out until the action wrapped up and he got carted out.

One argument I've seen for why we didn't get any more midboss type characters in season 3, is that the writers wanted to streamline the story and make it easier for new viewers to follow, and maybe they didn't want to fall into the same pratfalls that plagued the Hand, e.g. go for "simple and strong story" rather than "complicated and weak".

That said, I still agree with @Unsung that having a midboss in the vein of the Kitchen Irish or the Russians would've probably made some better worldbuilding. For instance, have something with Matt trying to topple Fisk's supporting pillars before going for Fisk himself. Like, have him go after one of the gangs that Fisk is trying to force into his new protection racket. Though I can also see this necessitating some reworking of the season's timeframe (from the looks of it, the period from episode 2 to 13 is over the span of about two weeks). The most likely place this could've been inserted would've been, I think, around episode 8 actually, after Foggy figured out what Fisk's ongoing criminal scheme was (put everyone who employs corrupt officials out of business, then corner the market in dealing in corruption and protection.)

@TheLoveCraftian: That's actually how it went in the movie (Matt took out Bullseye in the church, then had a one-on-one with Michael Clarke Duncan's Kingpin).

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 9th 2019 at 9:38:36 AM

The "Matt-saves-Karen" set up requires Fisk having a greater control of the FBI than he actually had at that point in the season. At that point he still needed to play low-key because he wasn't out of the woods yet with Nadeem and Dex and his whole gambit to win everybody's hearts by supposedly helping the FBI catch criminals wasn't finished yet. He only really got full control of the FBI once those two were out of the way and his gambit completed a couple of episodes later. Not to mention, the way you set up the situation, there would be absolutely zero need for Fisk to take them out of the location to throw them off in a cab, because he would have a perfect case for self-defense (as Matt leaped to attack Fisk). It'd also entail the FBI knowing about Matt's secret identity and Foggy not being there, two things that would complicate the later season.

The fact Matt showing up to save Karen is a overplayed trope and he'd need to teleport inside the building are also factors here, as well as his (presumable?) discovery of the war room ahead of schedule.

Again, it's just a lot of hassle for a brief epic fight that'd ultimately dilute some of the season's strongest moments (Karen facing off against Fisk and Matt and Fisk facing off in the end).

As for the ongoing discussion about the midboss fight, I felt they could have used Gladiator more in this season for that purpose. Play more on Fisk having his claws on Jenny and having Gladiator as the Tragic Villain mid-boss of the season.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 9th 2019 at 7:39:57 AM

Okay, I'll admit, that's just a minor complaint compared to the other complaint, which is the lack of some midbosses or minor gangs for Matt to fight. In the grand scheme of things, Dex is primarily an Elite Mook in the same vein as Nobu.

I would've liked a little more to what we got of Melvin as well, but I don't think that would quite solve the issue I'm having where Season 3 just felt like a smaller New York. I would have liked another gang, and specifically a new character where we could feel like someone really terrible was definitively defeated through Daredevil's actions. Melvin's not really a bad guy in the same way, and he's a reluctant criminal, and of course he's going to come back at this point.

...Though you know, it would have been cool to see Melvin go full Gladiator in Season 4, based on Matt burning his bridges with him here.

I would've liked a little more to what we got of Melvin as well, but I don't think that would quite solve the issue I'm having where Season 3 just felt like a smaller New York. I would have liked another gang, and specifically a new character where we could feel like someone really terrible was definitively defeated through Daredevil's actions. Melvin's not really a bad guy in the same way, and he's a reluctant criminal, and of course he's going to come back at this point.

...Though you know, it would have been cool to see Melvin go full Gladiator in Season 4, based on Matt burning his bridges with him here.

Right, they left Melvin hanging. It would've been nice to have some mention of him after episode 7. Hell, I'm surprised in the Matt+Karen+Foggy rooftop conversation in episode 11 that Matt never considered the idea of Melvin being a secondary witness they could use against Fisk if Nadeem didn't work out (Melvin had a direct line to Fisk, tailoring the man's suits, and he could testify to overhearing Fisk discussing criminal dealings with Owlsley and Wesley among others).

Another hanging thread actually comes from the Bulletin attack. In that episode, Karen is seen sitting down for a conference meeting. Ellison makes a comment about how their health insurance was recently slashed, joking, “I recommend that you don’t get sick.” This is the same day as Dex's attack, where multiple people are killed or severely injured. A few episodes later, Nadeem learns that Fisk manipulated his sister-in-law's insurance coverage to gain leverage on him. Makes me think that an attack on the Bulletin was something Fisk had planned out for a while to discredit Matt and discredit Karen but it was revised on the fly so Dex could do it as well as get rid of Jasper Evans. If enough time had passed, the attack would open up opportunities to get leverage over journalists at a paper that he just recently lost his leverage in (after Caldwell had been arrested). Fisk would do this by using a wounded reporter's inability to pay their medical bills to blackmail them into spying on Karen for him.

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 9th 2019 at 1:40:25 PM

I still hold firm to my notion that it would've been nice if we'd gotten more of Matt as a lawyer. If we'd gotten the season 4 that Oleson had pitched (before Netflix decided they wanted to can their Marvel properties), I bet we'd have gotten more of that balance of "Matt the lawyer" with "Daredevil the vigilante". Because out of 47 episodes, we saw Matt only in court for four of them (three episodes of Daredevil and the first episode of The Defenders; I don't count Matt and Foggy waiting outside the courthouse lobby in 3x12 while Ray Nadeem is speaking before the grand jury because Matt and Foggy aren't in the courtroom with Nadeem). Yes, I do realize now that season 3 was never going to give much room for Matt to show his lawyer smarts (although he did get his moments here and there; his plan for how to use Jasper Evans to expose Fisk; or when he told Nadeem how they'd circumvent a search warrant when they broke into Dex's apartment), but it was setting up for a season of Matt with his lives balanced out.

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 12th 2019 at 1:29:30 PM

I know I said this about a page or so ago, but I feel Foggy's D.A. campaign side plot needed more work. I mean, where was Foggy’s operation? If he was actually running there would need to be some kind of campaign behind him. I always thought he was going to do more, and it just never happened. The short timespan of season 3 is also enough that one video is not going to keep the public’s attention for very long.

For a protective shield, Foggy's attention isn’t getting a lot of attention. If you know anything about campaigning, it’s that you are constantly on the move. You are constantly answering tough questions from interested parties like journalists and other politicians. You are constantly defending yourself against accusations both legit and false.

He should've been worried about the possibility that the wrong person would have found Foggy's connection to Matt and the death of his law firm. They would have found Matt and Karen, and they would have tried to question them as well. It seems to be more of a sidelined plot convenience, which irks me. I get it. You need to get all of the wires connected, but this just feels a little flimsy.

Neither Matt or Karen would have come off well if their lives were investigated. Fisk could have used Todd or Daredevil to pressure Foggy to withdraw or worse.

@Unsung: I suppose the one defense of the "small world" argument I have seen is that this show's world is meant to feel small. Like, the smaller the outside world, the more they can explore the inside world". And there's an interview or two where Deborah Ann Woll has talked about this, and how the Avengers were saving the entire world while Matt Murdock’s defending 3 blocks of Manhattan. It allows there to be more time for smaller more personal stories. Not to mention the stakes are much higher and there's a genuine risk of Matt, of Karen, of Foggy getting hurt. (Movies like The Avengers and their ilk pretend to have big stakes, but they’re hollow. They always save the day and even those that die, don’t really die. Death is meaningless.)

At the same time, the structure of the story doesn't really allow for mid-level bosses. Like, we know Matt has to survive, because he still has to fight Fisk. The movies admittedly have a big problem with having too many mid-level bosses in the MCU. And it means the movies have no stakes. Who would that boss even be? A gang member? A copycat? They admittedly do kinda fill the "copycat" category using Dex, and perhaps the FBI agents in Fisk's pocket could be treated as mid-level grunts in a way.

There'd also be the problem of setting up storylines for these people. Because the more antagonists you introduce, the more plot points you need to be able to follow and tie up correctly. That was a problem with The Defenders, trying to do too much at once. Too many characters from too many different shows. The writers presumed too much from the audience.

I think your complaint about Melvin also has merits because yeah... it makes no sense for Matt to wear the black costume through the entirety of season 3. The first half or 3/4ths or so, sure. But once he found out there's another suit, he should've been wearing that. Have Matt save Melvin and have a theme of forgiveness going on. He could even tell Melvin he needs the suit to be better, if they wanted to redesign it or just have it stand out more from the one Dex had on. (Hell, I'd have loved to see how Fisk would've reacted to that, if he had anticipated the possibility of Matt escaping Melvin and stealing the suit; like, this would be a perfect place to bring in Judas bullets, by outfitting his henchmen with guns that can actually damage the suit. Boom, you have more threat and suspense for Matt along with shock value in the initial moment where he's supposed to be a badass again with the suit but he ends up getting hurt in a way that was unexpected.)

I mean it really makes little sense when Brett points at Matt in black and he's like, "That's the real Daredevil." That stuff would've hit home so much better if Matt took his mantle back by wearing either the costume himself, or getting a newer, better one. It felt so implied that it seemed weird for it not to happen. They had every excuse in the world to level up that suit for an even more epic finale, at the very least.

Going back on the earlier "What if Matt, not Foggy, had intervened in Karen's visit to Fisk?" question, I think the only way that would've happened would've been to rewrite Karen's actions prior to her visit to Fisk and her motivations. Essentially, her motivations would've changed from "provoke him into attacking me so he violates his house arrest" to "provoke him into ordering a hit on me".

Like, it would've had to go like this: Karen goes along with Matt and Nadeem when they break into Dex's apartment (which wouldn't be out of character for Karen given she's broken into Frank's house in the past). They get shot at, Nadeem is wounded. And while they're fleeing, Karen gets an idea: they need the police to catch Dex in the fakedevil suit to connect him to the Bulletin attack. In order for that to happen, Fisk needs to have a reason to use Dex again. Karen decides to make herself that reason, so while Matt is taking Nadeem to the church to get his bullet wound bandaged, Karen tears off and visits Fisk with the intent of making him so single-mindedly angry at her that he'll order Dex to carry out a hit on her (she doesn't tell Matt right away, figuring he'll come to intervene). Matt notices her absence, and goes to the hotel as Daredevil to grab Karen. He gets there just as Karen reveals that she killed Wesley, shoves her aside as Fisk is preparing to attack her, and the fight breaks out. It's ended when Fisk's FBI guards show up to restrain Matt and Karen, with Fisk directing the guards to kill Matt and Karen. This leads to a subsequent fight scene kinda like when Matt fought the corrupt cops who cornered him and Vladimir right after the bombings in 1x06, where Matt overpowers the agents in the hallway. He and Karen flee to the church with the intent of warning Nadeem that Dex is not the only crooked FBI agent, only to miss him 'cause he's gone home. Matt also reluctantly agrees with Karen's line of thinking that they need to lure out Dex, with the idea that he'll fight Dex long enough for the police to show up and arrest him, then get him to give up Fisk for the Bulletin attack. (And the side effect of Karen feeling even worse for herself about Father Lantom getting killed in the church attack)

That wouldn't require as many leaps of logic as you think.

If the whole [=#Save Daredevil] thing pans out and the show gets revived, one thing I'd like to see is the women be written better. Daredevil is a masterpiece as far as MCU stories go by, but it’s awful when it comes to their female characters interacting with each other or having relevance outside of their men. Yes, they’re amazing well-written characters, but all of those characters only ever interact with men, and they’re portrayed too much as an emotional crutch for their male interests. It’s particularly glaring with Karen, since she’s the female lead, but it’s true of the others, too.

Claire gets some interactions with another woman at the hospital in season 2, but otherwise spends two seasons only interacting with men. Marci only interacts with Foggy–Karen is present in her first scene, and they're both seated opposite Foggy at Father Lantom's funeral in the season 3 finale, but the way the Karen+Foggy+Marci scene in 1x05 went was only so Karen can admire Foggy, and drag Marci afterward. Vanessa, Gao, Elektra, Reyes, all of them are surrounded by men and only interact with men. (Not true of Gao and Elektra in The Defenders, where they interact with one another and with Alexandra, but true in Daredevil.)

The only female in the show to have plot-relevance outside of being a love interest is Karen (or Elektra in The Defenders when she’s filling the role of the villain, funnily enough in that show, Karen’s role was reduced to being Matt’s girl and her reaction to learning Matt was back to Daredeviling doesn't really gel with what was shown of the reveal scene at the start of season 3), but again, almost all of her screentime in Daredevil is spent interacting with men (and in The Punisher, the marketing more or less treated her like a romantic interest even though she was basically a special guest star). To the point that the only time I can count of series regular women from Daredevil talking to each other was Karen and Sister Maggie in 3x06, 3x09 and 3x11, but those wouldn't even pass a Bechdel Test because their dialogue was all about Matt, and Maggie wanting to help Karen because she’s Matt’s friend. Admittedly, of the women, Karen is the only one who gets some pass, only because she actually moves story arcs forward, yet the fandom and sometimes the show like to treat her as the prize the male (whether Matt or Frank) deserves more for saving her (Matt) and protecting her better (Frank).

(And even for all the great things the show writers did with Karen’s character on the show, and in season 3, they also literally fridged Julie in a refrigerator for Dex’s manpain. Again, they’re not that great)

So despite the fact that they cancelled it, Netflix still wants Daredevil to win an Emmy. In fact, it's pushing for 13 shows that it's already cancelled, including American Vandal and One Day at a Time.

Jesus Christ, Netflix, what the hell:

Well, if they win an Emmy it is good advertising for Netflix because you can still watch the stuff on Netflix.

And I guess I kind of get the logic of Netflix. I personally enjoy long shows as long as the narrative stays tight, but most people simply don't have this kind of attention span.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 18th 2019 at 12:59:45 PM

But they cancel even the ones who do — One Day at a Time was a sitcom that pretty much every critic agreed was great, even in its third season. And yet — cancelled.

I guess from their perspective they need new shows which tempt people to subscribe, not shows which people are already watching anyway

I'm just waiting for this model to blow up in their faces. Especially now that the market is getting overflooded, what with everyone and their mother starting a streaming service.

Edited by ZheToralf on Apr 18th 2019 at 10:04:17 AM

Since Netflix doesn't have a backlog of old content, they need to draw the audience in with as much new stuff as possible. But yeah, eventually this will backfire.

Netflix is probably hoping that DC comes back given the rumors that DC Universe May be closing its doors, but with Pandora’s Box open, it’s more likely DC just joins a planned WB service because we cannot have nice things anymore.

Something has to give and all the money for these originals has to come from somewhere. A rumored $10 million an episode for One Piece doesn’t grow on trees.