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Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#4501: Apr 27th 2021 at 1:32:04 PM

…Okay, I’m not French so I don’t know all the context, but that letter seriously worries me. Its very existence as well as its content - the military is supposed to be non-partisan, for it to openly criticize the government and essentially endorse the position of the far-right is…very concerning.

Doing it on the anniversary of a right-wing military coup attempt? That feels like an outright threat.

Edited by Galadriel on Apr 27th 2021 at 4:34:23 AM

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#4502: Apr 28th 2021 at 12:32:03 AM

[up] It does require action. But thankfully, it's far from the military as a whole, only a small fraction of it (even taking into account that there are others who silently agree with this letter). So swift and decisive action will likely work against this threat.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4503: May 10th 2021 at 12:15:48 PM

French soldiers warn of civil war in new letter

A new open letter has been published in France warning of the threat of civil war and claiming to have more than 130,000 signatures from the public.

The message, published in a right-wing magazine, accuses the French government of granting "concessions" to Islamism.

"It is about the survival of our country," said the text, said to be issued anonymously by soldiers and appealing for public support.

The French government condemned it, as well as a similar letter last month.

Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin called the latest letter a "crude manoeuvre" and accused its anonymous signatories of lacking "courage", AFP news agency reported.

The letter to the government last month came from semi-retired generals. The minister in charge of the armed forces, Florence Parly, said they would be punished for defying a law that forbids reservists or serving members of the military from expressing opinions in public on religion and politics.

However, far-right leader Marine Le Pen, a candidate in next year's presidential election, spoke out in support of the estimated 1,000 servicemen and women who backed the April letter.

The new text was published late on Sunday by Valeurs Actuelles, although the numbers and ranks of its original signatories - said to be active members of the military - remain unclear.

The authors of the letter describe themselves as part of a younger generation of soldiers who have served in Afghanistan, Mali and the Central African Republic, or joined domestic anti-terrorism operations.

"They gave their skin to destroy the Islamism to which you are giving concessions on our soil," they wrote.

Because of their anonymity, it is impossible to gauge how far the writers of this new letter represent the rank-and-file of the armed forces. Online petitions where no-one has to give their name cannot be regarded as firm evidence of anything.

Nonetheless, it would come as no surprise if this kind of generalised pessimism about the state of France were indeed the commonplace of barrack-rooms and officers' messes the length and breadth of the country.

Most French civilians are also concerned about violence, drugs and Islamism, so for soldiers - by instinct more attached than most to tradition, law-and-order and authority - to share those views is hardly in itself of note.

What's contentious is the willingness to go public and blur the lines between the military and the political. And on that score there will be many in the armed forces who disagree with the letter-writers. The analysis - even the warnings of disintegration and civil war - may be widely shared.

But urging politicians to "act" to stop the rot, with an implicit "or else" if they don't: that is a step into the unknown that the people who count in the armed forces - the top brass - would certainly not condone. line

The new message criticised the French government's response to the "elders" who signed last month's letter: "Did they fight for you to allow France to become a failed state?"

"If a civil war breaks out, the army will maintain order on its own soil," the letter went on to say.

"No one can want such a terrible situation - our elders no more than us - but yes, civil war is brewing in France and you know it perfectly well."

France has recently proposed a controversial bill to tackle what President Emmanuel Macron has described as "Islamist separatism".

However, some critics in both France and abroad have accused the government of unfairly targeting Islam.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#4504: May 10th 2021 at 9:46:10 PM

Most French civilians are also concerned about violence, drugs and Islamism, so for soldiers - by instinct more attached than most to tradition, law-and-order and authority - to share those views is hardly in itself of note.

I’m curious what is meant by “‘most French civilians are concerned about Islamism”. Spefically, if it could indeed be “most”, and how they define “Islamism”.

Oh God! Natural light!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4505: May 10th 2021 at 9:49:35 PM

Kind of chickenshit of them not to sign their actual names to this thing.

Disgusted, but not surprised
eagleoftheninth Cringe but free from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Ominae (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4507: May 13th 2021 at 12:27:15 AM

The high-ranking French officers are calling out the anonymous persons who signed it and called for them to be discharged instead so that they can campaign for what the letter has mentioned.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4508: Jul 24th 2021 at 2:49:27 PM

France’s lower house approves anti-separatism bill to battle Islamist extremism

The French National Assembly on Friday approved a controversial “anti-separatism” bill despite strong criticisms from parliamentarians from the Left and the Right. The government argued the legislation was needed to bolster France’s secular system, but critics say it breaches religious freedom.

After an acrimonious seven-month debate – with the text going back and forth between France’s lower house, the National Assembly, and the Senate – the anti-separatist bill was approved by 49 votes to 19. There were five abstentions.

In a fiery speech, far-left leader Jean-Luc Mélenchon on Friday railed against the "anti-Republican law", which he said was "anti-Muslim”.

France’s main opposition parties, including the Socialists (PS) and the centre-right Les Républicains, along with the French Communist Party, voted against the bill for different reasons.

Only three parties in the National Assembly – the ruling La République en marche (LREM) party and its two allies – voted for the law.

The far-right National Rally, led by Marine Le Pen, abstained from the vote.

Introduced by hardline French Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin, the bill contains a slew of measures on the neutrality of the civil service, the fight against online hatred, and the protection of civil servants such as teachers.

The bill was debated in a highly charged atmosphere in France after three attacks late last year by extremists including the beheading in October of teacher Samuel Paty, who had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed during a civics class.

France, home to Europe's largest Muslim community, is still shaken by the succession of massacres committed by Islamist militants from January 2015 that left hundreds dead.

Critics have however slammed the legislation as going contrary to the liberal values of the Republic that it seeks to protect.

A US envoy on religious freedom last year criticised the bill as "heavy-handed" and it has sparked unusually critical coverage in English-language media, even prompting French President Emmanuel Macron to write personally to the Financial Times to defend it.

Analysts have said Macron, who came to power in 2017 as a centrist reformer, has noticeably tacked to the right over the last months as he scents that his 2022 presidential reelection battle will come down to a run-off duel with the far-right Le Pen.

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Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#4509: Jul 26th 2021 at 12:18:37 AM

Wait, a total of 68 votes in the lower house??

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#4510: Jul 26th 2021 at 1:12:43 AM

[up] It wouldn't be much less ridiculous in the Senate (348 senators) than in the Assemblée Nationale (577 representatives). What kind of absolute idiot decided a quorum wasn't necessary?

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#4511: Jul 26th 2021 at 1:19:23 AM

Right, reading so much about US politics made me underestimate the size of our own Senate.

As for quorum... I guess our various right-wing governments (including those who masqueraded as left) simply decided it was getting in their way.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#4512: Jul 26th 2021 at 5:37:53 AM

I had to check the number of senators, tbh.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#4513: Jul 26th 2021 at 6:20:39 AM

Note that all this went relatively unnoticed in France because of the turmoil caused by the new laws regarding the health pass (access to most public places like theatres and restaurants will be restricted to people having a valid health pass, which can be obtained by either getting vaccinated or having been tested negative recently).

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4514: Jul 26th 2021 at 6:51:59 AM

[up] I wish my government would follow the French example on this one. We really need to increase the vaccination rate and while we won't be able to convince the die-hard antivaxcers, keeping them out from places where they could spread the virus is a good idea. There are people who wither can't take the shot or the vaccine is not effective, and protecting them should have precedence over those idiots.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#4515: Jul 26th 2021 at 8:14:02 AM

For the record, I do agree with the French government about that too, but the amount of protests against this law is kinda frightening (though the Vocal Minority effect is also at play here). Then again, this reminds me a lot of what happened last year when the mask was made mandatory.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#4516: Jul 26th 2021 at 11:14:40 PM

Same here.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
FCMacbeth The Man with a Different Mind from Land Below the Wind Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Singularity
The Man with a Different Mind
#4517: Jul 30th 2021 at 5:02:44 PM

Something related to what's going on here. Some billboard operator by the name of Michel-Ange Flori decided to put Godwin's Law in effect by depicting President Macron as Hitler, complete with his signature look along with the slogan "Obey, get vaccinated!" in French.

Naturally, Macron sued the lad for this reason. But Flori always said that he exercised his freedom of expression. He later tweeted "In Macron-land, showing the Prophet's rear is satire, making fun of Macron as a dictator is blasphemy." You'll know what he's talking about if you remember what happened to Charlie Hebdo and his sketchy depiction of the Prophet Muhammed after which it caused Muslims to have their boxers in a twist.

Here's a link if you want to read it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/emmanuel-macron-takes-legal-action-over-hitler-poster-comparison

Crazy stupid in battle. Crazy cupid on a nice date.
Iridener Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: In season
#4518: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:11:49 AM

The health pass is insanity, no wonder so many folks demonstrate against it.

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4519: Jul 31st 2021 at 2:36:30 AM

What is insane about requiring people to be vaccinated in order to visit public places?

Iridener Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: In season
#4520: Jul 31st 2021 at 2:44:36 AM

It's destroying businesses, it causes stigmatization of those that don't have it, it's giving some deputies such great ideas as denying access to voting sites (rejected... for now). France is the only country in Europe that has enforced it to such an extent, I wonder why.

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4521: Jul 31st 2021 at 2:59:21 AM

Probably because according to surveys, its' population has among the highest rate of anti-vaxxer, thus drastic measures might be required.

As for the "stigmatization" of anti-vaxxer.... . Frankly society should be more concerned over protecting the vulnerable who can not get vaccinated/ the vaccine does not sufficily boost their immune system instead of catering to idiots who are willfully endangering themselves and others.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#4522: Jul 31st 2021 at 3:37:39 AM

France is the only country in Europe that has enforced it to such an extent, I wonder why.

Makes sense, at some point folks are going to get fed up with antivaxxers endangering public health for petty reasons. There is polling support for the pass, too.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Jul 31st 2021 at 1:02:23 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Iridener Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: In season
#4523: Jul 31st 2021 at 4:39:31 AM

93 per cent of supporters of an unpopular president support the health pass. Shocker.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#4524: Jul 31st 2021 at 5:11:39 AM

Nice try, but I also see According to a recent Ipsos poll, 62 percent of the French are in favor of the immunity pass, and close to 70 percent approve of the president's decision to introduce mandatory vaccines for health workers in hospitals, clinics and care homes. in the article. Why do these not count?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#4525: Jul 31st 2021 at 2:59:02 PM

[up][up] The health pass has support beyond LREM supporters. Btw, the way vaccination works is by being universal, so that the few people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (immunodeficence, allergies, etc.) are still protected because the virus can't spread due to lack of susceptible targets. Anti-vaxxers put other people in danger for no good reason, so they absolutely deserve to stigmatized.


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