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edited 11th Oct '14 3:17:52 PM by MarqFJA
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I feel using the Soviets as the far left counterpart of the Nazis is wrong because frankly, the really, really psychotic Far Left movements exists on the Global South.
Watch me destroying my country
The Soviets are more like the Left's Mussolini, I'd imagine.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Neither that but there is a curious thing in that well, it depends a lot of things. The USSR changed a lot across its years.
Honestly the worst far left movements historically have being Maoist-and-derivates, with the extra irony that the West was more of less "eh, ok" with them just to stick it to the Soviets.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 20th 2020 at 11:04:10 AM
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Foreign Troper
I think Hitler's only true equivalent on the Left is Pol Pot.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Shin Megami Tensei IV
It helps Hitler is his sole equivalent on the Right
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Shin Megami Tensei IV
Protests would still exist in a society without authoritarian traits?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 20th 2020 at 12:37:26 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Hitler has no "equivalent" in the Left because such comparisons are ultimately vacuous. Hitler did bad things, the Soviets did bad things, trying to figure out who was worse doesn't help anyone better understand what happened under either regime.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
As a colleague of mine once put it, depravity isn't a contest.
Hard disagree, moral comparisons are necessary if one wants to comprehend the moral position of anything.
How can you determine the immorality of murder if you refuse to compare it to lesser evils? Greater scope evils are no different.
There are counterproductive ways to do it obviously, but a blanket rejection of moral comparisons is very much throwing out the baby with the bath water.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Comparing mass murderers is not a fruitful endeavour. At all.
I disagree. Comparing Generalplan Ost to Soviet conduct in Eastern Europe post-WW 2 really helps drive home the extreme evil of Nazism.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 20th 2020 at 11:29:02 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
A comparison I've seen to end in apologia way too many times to care for it.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
That and not all people are in armchairs. When you are to judge e.g Churchill's actions during the German-Soviet War, knowing that the Nazis were plotting to exterminate most of Eastern Europe's population and enslave the rest while Stalin was planning no such thing is critical. Doubly so when you actually are a politician or a voter.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
A comparison I've seen to end in apologia way too many times to care for it.
That's your prerogative, but I've seen it used to fight against false equivalencies that implicitly whitewash Nazi Germany so I'd still contend that it has its uses.
That and not all people are in armchairs. When you are to judge e.g Churchill's actions during the German-Soviet War, knowing that the Nazis were plotting to exterminate most of Eastern Europe's population and enslave the rest while Stalin was planning no such thing is critical. Doubly so when you actually are a politician or a voter.
Exactly.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
An act is to be judged by those moral criteria that we wish to uphold. What Hitler did violated our moral norms. What Stalin did violated our moral norms. Both were to be resisted. Arguing over whether one was worse than the other neither helps condemn nor exonerate anyone.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
It does tho, Generalplan Ost was basically a plan to genocide a entire continent. Its a nuff said situation.
Its better to not try to compare them directly in the "both are the same" but rather a "and this is how they interacted"
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 20th 2020 at 2:56:46 PM
Watch me destroying my country
An act is to be judged by those moral criteria that we wish to uphold. What Hitler did violated our moral norms. What Stalin did violated our moral norms. Both were to be resisted. Arguing over whether one was worse than the other neither helps condemn nor exonerate anyone.
This is exactly the attitude I don't like, just saying "they're both bad" helps mask the height of Hitler's evil. Comparisons are necessary to truly understand a person's moral positioning, positive or negative.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
I don't see why. Hitler lost a war and died. What else do you want?
Understanding the differences between far left and far right extremism on an analytical and qualitative level in order to address current issues and prevent the same mistakes for the future, and what kinds of forward-facing issues require more action to resolve than others on the basis of their moral consequences, is one thing. It is helpful to understand what differences led to their rises and falls, and differences and similarities in outcomes. The historical hows, the whys, and so on are perfectly valid to discuss, compare, and contrast.
But attempting to make intricate philosophical and moral equivalencies out of already-completed actions beyond our current already-understood ideas of "these actions were certainly horrific and we shouldn't do it again if we can help it" is little more than a masturbatory exercise in apologetics.
Edited by AlleyOop on Nov 20th 2020 at 4:23:17 AM
I agree. Well said.
Edited by DeMarquis on Nov 20th 2020 at 4:21:30 AM
"When you are to judge e.g Churchill's actions during the German-Soviet War, knowing that the Nazis were plotting to exterminate most of Eastern Europe's population and enslave the rest while Stalin was planning no such thing is critical. Doubly so when you actually are a politician or a voter."
Granted a problem when you separate stuff waaay to much you kinda end putting their stuff in a vacum as in each goverment exist in a sort of void, churchill was intrusmental in british resistence and yet he did produce a famine in india that kill thousands of people that is barely talked about(most people seen to reduce churchill blame to galiopi or his abrasive behavor) or the fact that Stalin create two genocide and try to starve east berlin make the idea of no seen thei rsimilituded laughable.
I mean both lauded and congratulate each other as great men, to the point cartoonish satirize both as married couple(until someone atack the other, that it).
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
But attempting to make intricate philosophical and moral equivalencies out of already-completed actions beyond our current already-understood ideas of "these actions were certainly horrific and we shouldn't do it again if we can help it" is little more than a masturbatory exercise in apologetics.
It's not apologetics to recognize the evil of Nazism, and how it exceeded many other regimes. That's just an abuse of the phrase.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I remember Pyro's post about how even victims of both FARC and the Columbian army feel dissapointed at the lack of anything redeeming about the right wing paramilitaries, the utter lack of high-minded noble ideal at least on theory.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 20th 2020 at 10:11:10 AM
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Neither of these statements are true.
Angry gets shit done.