Mortal Kombat

yeah I generally preferred old Lui kang. There are definitely other ways to expand on a character other than making him a fallen hero. I could see him not trusting raiden after his screw up of MK 9, but his character direction was not all that great and feels like he is being wasted.

Describe his character before Undead Liu Kang.

Well you can't blame him for going evil.

He's a fucking revenant. Thats some serious corruption shit going down.

Heh hopefully hes going up against Dark Raiden next game.

Good, honorable, likes to bang Kitana. Thats it.

edited 18th Nov '17 9:52:17 PM by slimcoder

Disciplined martial artist from the white lotus. Determined enough to fight fallen elder gods and even conquers to do the right thing. Has a rivalry with Kung Lao and willing to put aside his desires for the good of the many as shown when he continued to act as MK champion despite given the chance to rule a realm beside kitana.

edited 18th Nov '17 10:01:10 PM by Darthwyn

So pretty generic heroic type.

I suppose as a contrast to all of the darker or more morally ambiguous characters there's some merit in that, but you can't deny that his darker characterization in MKX has more meat to it and more room for expansion in the future.

Not sure how a fallen hero is any less generic then dedicated hero that would put his own happiness on hold for his duty. He didn't need to become a dark hero when scorpion had that covered in MK Deception by being the elder gods champion.

Its actually an interesting reversal of the status quo.

Scorpion has regained his humanity & rebuilt his clan but has lost his desire for vengance & is now overcome by despair so he seeks redemption.

Liu Kang has wound up in the exact same circumstances as Scorpion but has decided that if hes in a horrible situation then he should make the most of it & seek something greater for himself so he can finally feel some satisfaction in his own new un-life.

They prolly didn't want to do the same shit again after the reboot so I commend Netherrealm for taking the characters to different places.

edited 19th Nov '17 12:52:03 AM by slimcoder

Just how many morally ambiguous characters were there in Mortal Kombat? Scorpion and maybe the Subzero brothers to an extent but that's it as far as I remember.

I do find where X left Liu and Kitana to be interesting and I look forward to seeing where that goes. Unlike Shujinko and Taven, we have an acceptable new set of heroes to take up the torch. Meanwhile, having Johnny Cage and Sonya take on the "lead protagonist" mantle is literally what I was suggesting since the moment he died in Deadly Alliance, so I'm quite satisfied with their interim role in getting us to the new cast.

And frankly, "Betrayed hero capable of punching out elder gods conquers Hell" is a much more dignified way for Liu to fall than "Liu died 'cause of f*ck you and now he's a zombie."

edited 19th Nov '17 6:55:37 AM by TobiasDrake

More like died because the Deadly Alliance killed him.

which was a rather well thought out plan. They targeted him while he was isolated and Quan Chi had to create an opening by attacking by surprise.

The deadly alliance defeated Raiden and the heroes he gathered as seen in the opening of deception.

He die by sneak atack in the back in the most hilarious woff efect EVER, at least Raiden put at fight.

"I think I'm the only one who thinks that while Liu Kang was a 'Generic Good Guy', he made a legacy out of it."

Yeah this is the thing....not, he isnt like that, Liu kang is not cap or superman who is so nice that is almost a superpower, he is just a calm good guy who fight for goodness.....that it, it dosent help he didnt gain any new suit or movies until MK 9 for elder gods sake.

Also we already have Johnny cage as Nice guy, sure somewhat annoying but good guy and he really mature better than other chararter like him(IM looking to you Star Lord).

Now, What im looking is the fact BOTH Raiden AND Kang are fallen heroes, that I didnt see it coming, neither like the other anymore and both are pretty damn ruthless.....Yeah that have potencial.

Liu did put up a fight. He just put up a fight against the guy he could see.

This can easily describe Superman or Captain America on almost any day.

Neither did most MK characters. All of them wear a variation of their original costume.

Actually, are we sure Raiden is evil now? I mean, thus far all he's done is cut off Shinnok's head and tell Kitana and Liu not to mess with Earth.

edited 19th Nov '17 8:34:41 AM by windleopard

He's wearing his Dark Raiden outfit and is going on a rant about how he intends to hunt down and destroy anyone and everyone who might pose a threat to Earthrealm. Which was his exact motive when he was Dark Raiden in the old timeline. So, yeah, we're pretty sure.

Dark Raiden was an interesting thing that came about in the old timeline and really felt like it was building to something but ultimately never had a chance to go anywhere. There was ample build-up to the idea that one day, we'd have to face Raiden as the Big Bad of some game or another, but then the reboot happened and all of that build-up was lost.

The stinger to MKX feels pretty clearly like they're trying to pick back up that plot thread and finally deliver on what was developing in the background during Deception and Armageddon, despite having had to sacrifice that development to get here.

Kinda like how everyone wanted the Lizard to show up in Sam Raimi's Spider-Man films, and Spider-Man 2 and 3 helped build to the idea that the Lizard was coming, and then the Amazing reboot finally followed through and gave us the Lizard even though it wasn't the same continuity that had been developing the idea.

edited 19th Nov '17 8:49:48 AM by TobiasDrake

"This can easily describe Superman or Captain America on almost any day. "

No, Liu is a best, quiet and polite but he is not a boy scout like Superman or Cap, their nice guyness is almost a superpower a this point and so central to the chararter that if they dont have, they are not see as "true" version, just look complain of Injustice superman for example, even when he got a damn reason to be like that.

"Neither did most MK characters. All of them wear a variation of their original costume. "

Sub zero gain more powers in MKDA as new aparenice(a bit silly but it was there) as new version of their suit, and so have been with Scorpion, Liu kang? the same suit for almost two damn decades and no new powers, it was awfull.

"So, yeah, we're pretty sure."

And to extended the idea, Raiden ending said, tired of having earthalways being the defender he decide to preventive strike first on outworld, or what is more likey: to conquer them so they dont bother earthrealm again, and Kotal khan invoking mortal kombat in a intersting role reversal

"MKX feels pretty clearly like they're trying to pick back up that plot thread and finally deliver on what was developing in the background during Deception and Armageddon, despite having had to sacrifice that development to get here."

What is intersting about that is how the context change A LOT: in old timeline, Liu kang defeating Raiden to get back is body was a given(or a least a way to give us good raiden again), but now not only Liu is dead but now he is evil too....

Reveant Kang vs Punisher Raiden, now THAT is something I was hoping to see.

The problem is that you can just put Fallen Hero angle for so many goddamn times it gets tiring. X and the whole Injustice series runs on this thing. I mean, sure, maybe Liu Kang wasn't that impressive in the old continuity, but hey, what about someone who actually likes Liu Kang the way he is? The straight up good guy, even if boring? I can say the same to Superman (or the Regime). Or what happened in World Of Warcraft post Wrath of the Lich King (I just mentioned this because going Fallen Hero seems to be some sort of 'boner' within Western games)

To me, it felt like... Um yeah, this segment.

I mean you can say that moral ambiguity is a pretty cool thing, and that I agree. But remember that some of us grew up liking the old times and would like to see them at least honored. This looked more like "Your old style sucks. NOW GO WEAR THIS NEW STYLE THAT PISSED ON THE OLD STYLE!"

edited 19th Nov '17 4:37:51 PM by ChrisX

Yes & let us do the same thing over & again, never changing things up & keeping things the same old, same old.

Its a new continuity, shit happens so ya gotta deal with it.

Even then the Fallen Hero thing wasn't even that big in X. They were just mooks & the conflict centered more on Shinnok's return.

edited 19th Nov '17 4:45:37 PM by slimcoder

The Fallen Hero thing could fall into the 'Do the same shit over and over again', you know. Like if you want something different, how about something else than 'Oh, let's make this guy turn evil!'

An example of a good new thing is maybe like "I have good reasons to be a Fallen Hero. But I refuse." See, the 'same old thing' you mentioned before felt like the Hero was never given the offer to be a Fallen Hero, nor have the build up to become like it. Things like What You Are in the Dark.

I mean, if you like these things, then it's all good. It just kind of confirms that these days, the Western devs have some sort of boner to Fallen Hero scenarios. I can understand, that's why we have the trope American Kirby Is Hardcore. But if I say that's not to my style, nothing can change that and my disappointment at it.

edited 19th Nov '17 4:52:43 PM by ChrisX

Its about the execution not whats different or new. As long as the execution is done well then whether its cliche or not is irrelevant.

Also where is this "Western taste" shit coming from? I can't recall any examples of that recent video games. Stop blaming it on "Western tastes" seriously.

What "Eastern tastes" don't have this?

edited 19th Nov '17 5:03:12 PM by slimcoder

" Liu Kang wasn't that impressive in the old continuity, but hey, what about someone who actually likes Liu Kang the way he is? "

Well, this is the thing: those a minority, people really dislike liu kang o even worse, they consider it Boring and bland, Super and Cap for example have their nicety as big charm that make them unique but Kang dosent even have that.

" I can say the same to Superman (or the Regime)"

You cant, because Injustice is build right on Superman turing evil, Is not like he start good and become bad some installament away but right from the star he become one, and by this being a diferent timeline demanding he stay good is pointless.

"But remember that some of us grew up liking the old times and would like to see them at least honored."

Again, Alternate Superman, right? and in X Johnny is still good, they rescute Jax and Sonya who kick ass and hell the game even does the imposible and FINALLY move Hanzo for the angst fulled demon he was(sure he is a dick and screw out) and the fact you fail to see that over by mantaing a status quo come as forced to some.

they pretty much did take the same path with lui kang just in a shorter amount of time. They killed him off and corrupted him. The only difference is that back in the old timeline raiden made him a zombie and their was a spirit lui kang to offset murderous zombie lui kang.

In the new timeline he is killed corrupted by shinok which shinok doing makes sense since his future self probably warned him about lui kang being a threat. So not really different in regards to the big picture of his path just minor changes.

Actually a few characters went the same route with a few exceptions resulting from Raiden doing things differently.

There's zero difference. You're describing the same character with different words.

You seriously think fans of Liu Kang see his current direction as the true version?

Again, all of them are wearing variations of the same outift. And what new powers did Sub Zero and Scorpion get in Deadly Alliance?

Frost was cool, what is she up to in the new timeline?

Being Sub Zero's Student with Issues...

The "Western Taste" I was referring to refers to 'boners towards Fallen Hero or Jumping Off the Slippery Slope'. I wouldn't say that if NRS was the only offender in this... look at Blizzard and their magnum opus...

I'm not referring that mine is the absolute best solution, but this is not something I should consider 'always good storytelling'. No. I believe a good storytelling or characterization doesn't always have to depend on 'Make that guy a Fallen Hero or jump off the slippery slope' whenever they want to shake the status quo.

And honestly, if I start mentioning "Eastern Taste", it would devolve into a cultural debate, so I'm not quite up to that... But I'll just say this: There ARE Western games that don't depend too much on those 'tastes'. But... well, when things like MK or WOW are amongst the biggest names on Western games...

If you were a fan of Johnny or Sonya, that's nice. But what if you were a fan of those who were put on Revenant state forever, and see them embrace evilhood without remorse? (Which to me looks like not 'improving from the status quo', but more like 'taking a status quo and throw it to a pit of rabid dogs' for these guys) That's what I meant. Even if my overall favorite, Sub-Zero, came out unscathed and better... this still leaves a bitter taste in me.

You seriously think fans of Liu Kang see his current direction as the true version?

For those who sees his old self as super boring and needs fixing... I'm gonna say 'Yes'. (Not me.)

edited 20th Nov '17 5:15:54 AM by ChrisX