General Japanese Culture Thread

It doesn't? It's a social reaction to the work culture and social expectations. They are expected to be more aggressive yet stoic. No connection to the gay stereotype, which is largely fueled by a different kind of stereotyping (obsession with muscles and grooming etc.).

Perhaps stupidly, the entire term was popularised by the media. It gets good headlines.

edited 7th May '18 9:34:46 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

It's not about being gay, it's about checking out from dating and romance (and as a consequence, family and children) entirely. The whole concept is bound up in a certain attitude about masculinity — that men have to be aggressive and assertive, or else there's something wrong with them. (This is why I tend to think that "herbivore" is a better translation than "vegetarian" — though I believe the term literally comes out as "grass-eating".)

Basically, the expectation is that men will compete for women, by being confident and charming and assertive and also rich (or at least willing to spend what money they have on their dates), for the privilege of marrying someone and then continuing to be strong and powerful and giving her money for the rest of his life. You want a supportive partner, not just someone who lives in your house and spends your money? What are you, some kind of wuss? Men are powerful and aggressive breadwinners! They don't need support! Suck it up, buttercup!

The "herbivore men" have just decided that this sounds like a shit deal, so they don't bother. They're single and plan to remain so — they don't even date, much less get married or start families.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Well, they're not wrong, it does sound like a shit deal. Same as how women being forced to give up their careers to become full-time housewives is also a shit deal. I'm not surprised Japanese men and women alike don't want to pursue relationships.

Oissu!

At times like this, I just remind myself that no matter how much the conservatives grumble, sooner or later Japan will find their hands forced in putting a stop to this crap by the demographic collapse.

Without choice, want is irrelevant.

My somewhat uninformed opinion is that this is another situation where change has to wait until the older generation dies off.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

That too, but the question is whether they've succeeded in brainwashing the younger generation too much for things to change.

I remember reading somewhere that even the backlash (or is it really more of a breakdown of) against the conservative expectations, a lot of Japanese youth still seem to expect potential partners to conform to those expectations.

I don't know how true that is, nor can I remember the source, but if that is then that doesn't bode well for progress there.

I haven't met too many people my age living here, and expectations for your spouse aren't really something you just casually discuss over board games anyway, so I can't really say. I've met some people who really seem to buck the trend, and others who will gladly tell female coworkers that they would be pretty if only they bothered putting makeup on.

It's been fun.

Yeah it’s worth noting that said men aren’t saying that such relationship dynamics are wrong, just that it’s not worth the effort for them, they still grant the premis that relelationships should be like that.

They’re basicly a non-angry form of In Cels.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Sounds pretty voluntary to me.

Yes it is very much voluntary. There's a discussion about incels right now in the Sexism and Men's Issues thread if you're curious.

Disgusted, but not surprised

I don't see them having anything near the level of hate some (most?) incels have. Volcel is likely the more appropriate term.

As I said, they’re a non-angry version, a better comparison would actually be the “men go their own way” movement, but again less angry.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Yeah, though there are some definite connections to NEETs, otaku, and others of the '2D is better' crowd, who are often misogynistic for other reasons/in other ways. The usual 'real girls are too much hassle to deal with' crowd.

edited 8th May '18 5:18:38 PM by RedSavant

It's been fun.

That is almost harmless.
Alas, I’ve been hearing more like “real girls have forgotten what womanly or ladylike is”, believing only female cartoon characters (and they don’t like me using the c-word) show how girls should be, although I heard that expressed not so much by Japanese people (who tend to keep more civil about it) but by Westerners having lived for a while in Japan (often teaching English) leaving disappointed that even Japan got infected by the modern blight, to which my reply is usually “obviously not ‘infected’ enough.”

More often than not, those same individuals oppose women’s suffrage at best (often opposing any kind of suffrage, preferring divine-right monarchy or some other classy stuff).

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend

Sounds more like westerners who hang out on Japanese imageboards. Still funny how many foreigners are JETs.

And divine-right monarchy is now in vogue!

edited 9th May '18 1:57:34 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

That's very much Real Women Never Wear Dresses.

A little off-topic, for which I'm sorry for but where to discuss that particular trope?

Now back on topic. How exactly does one medium in Japan get in trouble for touching anything Korean? I mean, in regards to that story about one anime showing Korean cuisine and there were big complaints about it, how exactly do the 2chan crowd voice ultranationalist rhetoric?

Terminus Est:

My perception is skewed somewhat since I don’t know that many Japan-related Westerners and I don’t patronise imageboards due to my low-tolerance for arsehollery.

It’s easier than pro sumo to get into…

These imbeciles are an embarrassment for Japan and shame HIM to no end.

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend

Hallow Hawk:

That’s a very close paraphrase indeed.

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend

The problem there is the disconnect between two different cultural standards in flux. The old social contract was that husbands were breadwinners and providers, while wives were homemakers and raised the children. Now women are rejecting the status quo that they must leave their careers when they marry... but they still demand husbands that are providers are breadwinners.

All of which ties into Japanese corporate culture as well. Men are expected to work insane hours as a matter of course. That's why women were expected to stay at home and take care of housework, errands, meals, children, etc — because men were expected to be working 60 hours a week. Attitudes for women has begun to change, but less so for men. So you're still expected to work 60 hours a week and give up most of your salary to your wife so she can run the household, plus doing (some of) the cooking/cleaning/childcare/etc on top of that?

That's why some guys are just saying "nope" and not bothering.

On the less savory side, there's also the fact that many Japanese men see career-minded women as unfeminine — either unattractive (because there must be something wrong with them, or why wouldn't they find a husband and quit their job?) or intimidating (since they expect women to act submissive, not like peers). Obviously, neither of these reflect particularly well on the men in question.

Hopefully, this is just a symptom of growing pains as Japanese society adjusts to changing reality, and eventually it will settle on a new, more equitable, normal. But Japanese society is generally slow to change, and it's not unthinkable that a generation of Japanese people will be screwed by the system in the meantime.

edited 9th May '18 8:18:03 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

At least the Japanese government doesn't seem to actively enforce patriarchial gender relations in the literal name of national security, unlike its totally communist progressive neighbor China where the very phrase Me Too! has been banned as a Western tactic to brainwash Chinese women against their own culture.

edited 9th May '18 8:29:56 AM by FluffyMcChicken

I've said before on OTC threads that East Asian culture has some serious issues of the soul. 90% machismo, bloodshed, isolationism, and regressivism.

Disgusted, but not surprised

East Asian work and academic culture frightens me

Makes me grateful I’m an American, because my parents came here. I hear a lot of families come here to escape that

Maybe it's because she grew up here in the US as a kid herself, but my mom was actively determined not to be a stereotypical "Asian parent" when raising me and my brother. All the talk about Tiger Moms made her want to throw up. My parents sometimes get a bit of knocking about from my other relatives for not "trying" hard enough to make Ivy League alums out of us, which is silly because it's not like any of them have succeeded either.

edited 9th May '18 11:45:32 AM by AlleyOop

I know tiger parent stereotype rankles because a lot of people do use it to shit on Asians

But it’s one of those uncomfortable stereotypes where you end up personally knowing a few examples that fit the mold, and you feel this dissonance where you don’t want to enable racist stereotypes but it’s undeniably there