Actually maybe humans should have a friendship school (or friendship classes or something). Basic human decency should be universal thing, but not every kid has a good parent/guardian that can be relied on to teach it to them.

Post of the Day #2424

Posted by thefran on Fri, 2nd Dec '11 1:42:39 PM - Post #47969 in the old thread

The rare "People Bitching About 'Luna Eclipsed' Post".

I'm pretty sure that was actually talking about the second episode of season 1.

It's about the beginning two-parter of My Little Pony.

I mean, I do have one or two things to complain about "Luna Eclipsed" but not now.

Edit: 'd.

Edited by fredhot16 on Feb 12th 2019 at 7:19:43 AM

I'm pretty sure Celestia's school does teach core subjects. She's EEA-certified which means her school conforms to all educational standards. And didn't "Amending Fences" show us a chemistry class in flashback?

I swear we've seen Celestia's students doing chemistry.

Meanwhile Twilight herself, as a graduate of the school, is versed in mathematics, astronomy, history, geography, etc. etc. and not just magic. She's clearly well-educated.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 12th 2019 at 8:26:07 AM

I remember how LE was almost a sacred cow episode when it came out, because Luna. Kinda felt like everything Luna touched turned into fandom sacred cow back then.

Funnily enough, I've started reading a pre-S2 fic with WoonaLuna in a large role (just realized I still need to get to Progress someday). It's interesting to see not only a less imperious Luna but the mane cast in their slightly less developed days (and a mention of Twilight's parents that may or may not go anywhere but isn't going to involve Shining Armor).

By the way, is there anybody interested in going next in the Round Robin? I've had trouble finding anyone who is ready to go next.

It's never flat out shown, but it's possible Twilight does have side classes dedicated to teaching core subjects for the younger students. We just don't see them because the students we follow are all too old for lessons like that. (given that the Student 6 all seem to be teenagers)

We're never really told all of the EEA's standards. Twi didn't seem to be teaching core classes when she was desperately trying to do things exactly by the EEA's book.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 12th 2019 at 4:38:02 PM

Yeah, you're right. It's a sad irony I ponder about now and then. A lot of adults I know (or used to know) are more in need of the friendship lessons from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic than the little girls the show was originally made for.

@Redmess

Gallus was at the Washouts show. I don't know if any of his friends were with him, but he was there, i believe.

All the young six attended the Washouts show. They just didn't attend together.

You're welcome to headcanon that to fix the problems with Twilight's charter school, but it's never shown to us (whereas we see Moon Dancer learning chemistry), nor does the general premise that Twilight's school told educational standards and regulations to eat a dick necessarily lend itself to the idea that she's actually doing stuff by the book offscreen.

Inventing Watsonian scenarios to fill plot holes does not fix problems inherent to Doylist story crafting. When the writer says that Twilight has young children at a school that teaches one specific subject, has its entire workforce of teachers dedicated to facets of that subject, and does not conform to educational standards, then the burden is on them to inform the audience that she's still giving those young children a core education.

If Twilight opened a factory and a major plot point was that her factory is not OSHA compliant, then the audience would not reasonably be expected to assume the factory has guardrails on all of its catwalks.

What this boils down to is that the Friendship School was an interesting premise, but the writers have done a terrible job with its execution. In character focus, in development of the premise, in the execution of its themes, and in the conception of some of those themes - all culminating in a phenomenally OOC moment where Twilight and Celestia both agree to condemn a child to rot in prison until she dies.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 12th 2019 at 12:49:08 PM

Here's a disclaimer: this is not shorter but it has more substance, more actual thought put into it. It's more worthy of reading then the previous two live blogs, at least, in my opinion, and it finishes part one of "Twilight's Kingdom".

So, um, here it is: the last part, part three, of the liveblog of part one of "Twilight's Kingdom".

So, where were we?

Ah, yes, after tirek gave his spiel about how he and discord can take over the world and discord looked not the slightest bit concerned or even torn about the prospect of betraying Equestria, including Fluttershy, but more intrigued at the idea.

Ugghhhh...

Look, despite my complaints, I know that for the sake of a story, they can't really let discord go in and solve the problem instantly because where's the tension in having a near-omnipotent Master of Chaos go and solve the problem? What does that leave for our protagonists, especially in an adventure story?

Having discord not do anything in the beginning two-parter is frustrating in a Watsonian sense but I know that it's a bit necessary in a doylist sense and discord's personality does give a manner of basis for not going to instantly solve the problem, him being a contrarian jerk who's probably not too happy with why he got paroled, no matter what he says to Celestia's snout. He'll help but only when he absolutely has to.

But this? Having discord betray everybody? Having discord betraying everybody is one of the worst ways to keep the tension. For one thing, discord was let free so he could use his magic for Equestria. Betraying Equestria is the exact opposite of what he was let free from being a statue. What's supposed to happen to him after tirek is gone? He can't go back to being a statue because nobody can use the Elements of Harmony yet can any hopes of him being reformed or even having the capability to reform be entertained?

Another thing that was able to keep discord from being a statue again was his bond with Fluttershy. She's almost literally the only reason why he isn't the Master of Chaos or a statue anymore. It's one of his few sympathetic traits so having him betraying her, the one person he cares about at all is incredibly out of character and does nothing but harm to it.

Now, I haven't seen what happens next so maybe he goes and betrays everybody but spares Fluttershy, thus keeping his affection for Fluttershy but even then, there's still problems with it, especially after this story if it isn't going to keep that as part of the "reformation of discord" storyline. It's just a idea that doesn't seem to really consider the consequences, both for the character and stories afterwards.

If you absolutely had to try to extend things and have discord go after tirek, I have a suggestion.

Let discord find tirek absorbing magic from a pony but before he claps him in chains, he sees tirek grow. He's intrigued by that and resolves to let tirek to grow as much as he can so as to see what happens and, hey, there's no real risk because he's discord, he can turn this bugger into a moth with googly eyes whenever he wants. How powerful could tirek get to be able to hurt the Master of Chaos?

It plays into discord's flaw of overweening hubris, the same flaw that got him turned into stone by Celestia, Luna, and by Sparkles with her companions. It also keeps discord from being a deliberate turncoat, thus ruining what little sympathetic traits he had. It's also a bit understandable for him to be arrogant because the only things that ever actually hurt him were the Elements of Harmony and they're gone...for reasons that still escape me.

And oh god. I just realized that Fluttershy in that picture looks really off and a bit creepy. Is that a Fluttershy doll?

And I also realized that tirek's spiel is phrased in a way that's not even reflective of reality!

So, tirek tries to convince discord to help him so that he can gain his "freedom" and play with the world however he desires à la Luke and Vader.

But discord already has his freedom. He had it ever since the Elements of Harmony got taken by a magical tree and they were the only things that could actually stop him. And discord knows that. If he hasn't been the Master of Chaos, it's because he didn't want to be, not because anybody could stop him.

"Help me to grow strong, and be rewarded with something far greater than friendship. Freedom." He's already got that, tirek. Got anything else up your oh-so-voluminous sleeves? Heck, what do you have to offer him? It's one thing to get him to backslide into being the Master of Chaos but it's not going to be from anything you have to give.

He could let you go as a distraction to stir up more chaos and maybe even help you grow a bit so he won't be worried about you getting your demon...flank, I guess, getting handed to you too early but what you're suggesting is an alliance and you have nothing for discord to want to work with you as co-plunderer of Equestria.

Sparkles: "I think I found something! I've been reading our journal, and there's something interesting about the sections that Discord bookmarked. Applejack, do you remember when you had to tell everypony that the tonic Granny bought from the Flim Flam brothers didn't really work?" Ah, now we begin the recap of all the stories with that multicolored shine.

Rarity: "It's clear we've all had our moments to shine, Twilight, but I'm with Applejack. What does any of this have to do with the opening of the chest?" Oh, this oughta be worth it...

Sparkles: "All of you had tough choices to make. But when you made the right one and embraced your element, it helped somepony else make the right choice too. Each of you received something from the pony whose life you helped change. I know it sounds crazy, but maybe there's something special about those objects that could lead us to the location of the keys. The chest is connected to the Tree of Harmony, the Tree is connected to the Elements, and the Elements are connected to all of us. There must be a connection! I hate to admit it, but maybe Discord was trying to be a good friend after all."

Now would be a really awkward moment for Rarity to mention that she used the thread and tossed the spool into the garbage weeks ago.

Or that dash misplaced the flag.

Or that the flower expired. Or that Applejack already used the bit.

Or that Gummy ate Boneless in a fit of envious rage.

It's the risk of having random garbage be significant in magic: random garbage tends to be treated as though it's random garbage. Ask anybody who had to set up a innocuous Portkey.

As for Sparkles's little revelation, it's....not that illogical a conclusion. If the tree gave this thing and it was the source of the Elements of Harmony, maybe the two are connected. Since we know nothing about this thing, it's about as reasonable a conclusion as any in such circumstances even though it's possible that the thing and the Elements don't work on the same basis.

But it's undermined by Sparkles not really coming up with this by herself. She had to get a lot of help from discord, what with the five marks color-coded to each of the main characters, and discord only did that because the writers didn't actually focus on how to unlock the "mysterious thing of mystery" so since they're at the end, they had to get Sparkles to want to unlock it, regardless of how unsubtle and rushed it was. He doesn't have any Watsonian reason to do this!

It's not that discord can't help but Sparkles doesn't even get the desire to try to unlock it herself! She had to get prodded into wanting to unlock it from her original intention of sulking in the old castle! And with what he did to that tome, he's essentially holding her hoof through the entire thing! And he shouldn't really know how it could help unlock it!

Sparkles is the protagonist! She should have to earn being able to unlock the mysterious thing of mystery and not get so much unexplained help that she's essentially reading a walkthrough given to her by God! At the very least, the desire to unlock it should come from herself!

Another thing that undermines this is that no attempts had been made to look into it more since "Castle Mane-ia" in 11-30-2013. We don't know why the tree had the mysterious thing of mystery, why it had the Elements of Harmony, why the tree seemingly gave the mysterious thing of mystery after getting revived, where the tree came from, who planted it, or what it was planted for. We know nothing more about the "mysterious thing of mystery" or the magical tree ever since we saw it almost a year ago. We don't even know if the mysterious thing of mystery can be unlocked or if it even has anything inside it.

Here's the problem with having almost no focus on the "mysterious thing of mystery" that has nothing to do with me pedantic for now: it doesn't give me any reasons to care about opening it.

Let's take, for example, another over-arching storyline: the Grand Galloping Gala. When that was set up, all of the main characters had reasons to want to go to the Grand Galloping Gala. Rarity wanted to meet her Prince Charming, Pinkamena wanted to get her groove on, dash wanted to impress the Wonderbolts, etc. etc. All of them had dreams and ambitions that were actually tied into the Grand Galloping Gala and since we care about these characters, we care about the Grand Galloping Gala and what'll happen when they get to it.

However, because of the lack of focus, this storyline barely has an established bond with the main characters so we don't have a reason to care about the actual focus of the storyline, the mysterious thing of mystery. Because nobody actually mentioned it ever since "Castle Mane-ia", it gives the impression that nobody cared about the thing at all or even recollected that it existed until now. Heck, nobody even tried to take it from the tree for studying it, which I expect that at least Sparkles would want to do!

Because all the stories that actually move forward the storyline don't have any mention of the "mysterious thing of mystery" or actually connect to it in any way that gives us any more information about what it is or how it could be unlocked or even what could be inside it, it's only now, in May of the next year, that we come back to what those stories were supposed to be connected to, knowing no more about it or what could be inside it then we did a year ago.

Heck, the only character who's supposed to care is Sparkles, considering that she went to the old castle in the first place to learn more about this thing, and she only tries to unlock it now because discord told her that it might help her with her feeling superfluous and useless! It's for a godforsaken self-esteem boost!

Recollect how "Magical Mystery Cure" left me in a miasma of why and how when I saw it? I'm getting that feeling now, but I shouldn't be getting that feeling because "Magical Mystery Cure" only had thirty minutes to tell it's story whereas the "mysterious thing of mystery" storyline had close to a year to set it up properly and it's a two-parter, giving it double the space Magical Mystery Cure had for it's story! Heck, even considering how many stories each either season had, it becomes even more inexcusable because the season before this had half of the stories this season does and no ending two-parter!

It, this storyline, it doesn't feel...significant, for lack of a better word. It doesn't feel that vital or special. We know so little that we have no reason to care, we haven't seen the actual focus of the storyline for ages so when we get to the finale, it's escaped from our minds, and it's brought up now because Sparkles is bored.

Also, I'm quibbling but "maybe there's something special about those objects that could lead us to the location of the keys"? Sparkles, you got that thing from a magical tree. Maybe there aren't any keys for it in existence.

Oooh, ooh, I have a suggestion. Maybe...those things are the keys!

Why not? It's a magical tree. Anything goes with magic, especially magic that has no actually defined limits or characteristics. It can do whatever you want.

Sparkles: "I don't see anything on them that would give us a clue as to where the keys might be. They're just... ordinary, everyday objects."

Ah. I may be wrong but I might get what they were trying to do. I had an inkling of it for quite a time but with this line of "ordinary, everyday objects.", it finally cinches it.

Here was the intention: the mysterious thing of mystery is supposed to be a magical relic that the protagonists become worthy of using not through massive and weighty gauntlets that endanger their lives but through the tribulations of ordinary life.

It's not an boneheaded idea, especially since it gives the writers an opportunity to be able to have an entire story focus on how each character is bonded to their Element rather then a few minutes from when Luna came back and it seems tailored for "slice of life" fiction, but the lack of focus on the actual "mysterious thing of mystery" plus the idea that our protagonists have to seemingly prove that they have a bond with their Elements again after having the Elements of Harmony for a full Watsonian year hampers it.

Huh. All of these things turn into...actual keys. I did not expect for the things to turn into actual keys. I was kinda expecting the holes to conform to the shape of the thing it's supposed to be put into, not for the things to turn into actual keys whose handle resemble their cutie marks.

It would have been cooler and a bit more magical in my opinion if the holes conformed to the things rather the things turning into actual keys and I wouldn't have to ask: how does this work? Has the tree blessed these things so that they will turn into keys when you...put the things into the holes?

Who, in the lord's name, could possibly think that was a reasonable step. especially with those holes? It only happened now because of frustration! Nobody would logically try to fit these things into a keyhole!

Here's a suggestion: why not, every time we get a shot of the shine on the thing, we get another shot of one of the holes on the mysterious thing of mystery changing so that the thing we saw before could actually fit into it? It'd make a lot more sense for anybody to try to fit the things into the mysterious thing of mystery and it'd actually make it clear that the stories are connected to the mysterious thing of mystery.

Rarity: "Think, Twilight. When have you completed a difficult magical task, and in doing so encouraged another pony to do the same?" Wouldn't the theme be "when has she ever chose magic above another thing that she cares about and in doing so, converted another pony to do the same"?

Sparkles: "I haven't. If I had, I would have written about it in the journal." Maybe you want to take a look at it again? You only seemed to be looking at the parts that discord marked for this. Maybe you should look at the parts he didn't mark? After all, he could have made a mistake and not marked that part.

Spike: "Don't worry, Twilight. I'm sure you'll get your key eventually." Oh, don't you start with that too, Spike! She got enough of that from the real princesses, she doesn't need it from you too!

Sparkles: "I came as quickly as I could! Is something wrong? Is it Tirek?" No, it's that random waterfall pooling to the right behind the bouquet.◊ What the bugger is that? Why is it there? Is the bouquet meant to hide it? Has it always been there? Celestia, why do you have a random waterfall near your throne?

Celestia: "Tirek has stolen enough magic that he now has the strength to steal flight as well. Without Pegasi to control the weather, there will be no rain in Equestria." So, are the Wonderbolts actually supposed to be the Equestrian military? I always presumed that they were nothing more then professional sports buggers back when they were introduced but considering now, that time they went to get their flanks served to themselves when Spike became Godzilla, and their origins in the Earth, Unicorn, Pegasus Guard, are they actually supposed to be the Equestrian military now? Or did I miss that insinuation before? I mean, dash wants to be a Wonderbolt and she's an unabashed athlete so I presumed that the Wonderbolts were merely into professional sports, similar to a character wanting to be a professional soccer player.

Celestia: "But there is one solution. It is only by making this sacrifice that Equestria and the lands beyond it might be saved. We must rid ourselves of our magic before Tirek has the chance to steal it from us." Are...are Celestia, Luna, and Cadenza about to toss themselves off the balcony? Is that what she's insinuating: a suicide pact?

So. My thoughts for this story.

Let's get what's nice through the gate. It's nice that the writers are not sweeping under the rug how Princess Sparkles, despite the set-up of the beginning two-parter, hasn't actually been a real Princess ever since Celestia and Luna came back from the Plundervines.

We're finally going to unlock the godforsaken mysterious thing of mystery. I'm glad that thing's finally going to get off it's lazy bum.

...Erm, discord did not incite me to blind rage and I actually found him a bit entertaining.

As for the villain, tirek is actually not a bad villain. A furred monkey-centaur-demon thing in a cloak with a creepy, ragged voice that sounds as though he's nine gillion years old and is feeling every bit of it is not the worst idea for a villain.

He actually reminds me of Imperfect and Semiperfect Cell: a threatening monster who absorbs everybody around him to be more powerful, tries to hide himself, and when he's been caught and gotten his butt handed to him by a amoral former villain, he manages to use honeyed words to get him to actually help him become as powerful as he can by getting to his base desires such as discord's desire for chaos.

So, yes...

Um...

Oh, for lord's sake, there really isn't that much that's positive. Our story here is beset with problems.

One of it's worse ones is it's use of discord. Our little draconequus seems to be little more then a tool for the writers to move the story, whether it was prodding Sparkles into trying to unlock the mysterious thing of mystery, giving her the tome with his marks so that Sparkles could cheat her way into unlocking it, or betraying Equestria so that Sparkles could have a villain to tussle with in the next part.

Another problem is the storyline about the mysterious thing of mystery. For almost a year, there has been no progress on learning anything more about the mysterious thing of mystery and that leaves us with no reason to care about it since we do not know what it is, what's inside it, why the tree gave it, or even if it can be unlocked. Almost a year has been used to set up to unlocking it but only in the most cursory sense and even then, not a day has been used to give us or even the characters a reason to want to unlock it.

And because the writers didn't bother to set it up, the mysterious thing of mystery only gets nearly unlocked through contrivance after contrivance after contrivance such as discord prodding Sparkles to unlock the thing in the vain hope that it might give her a purpose, giving her the tome with the marks needed to move the story, and Pinkamena tossing Boneless at the mysterious thing of mystery.

None of this is quality storytelling!

Sparkles not actually being a real princess is also another problem. While it's nice that the writers are not sweeping the uselessness of Sparkles being a Princess, it's not really the best response to have the real Princesses not really give a response to her legitimate feelings of not being worth much as a Princess with "look, wait, O.K?" I'm aware the writers didn't seem to have any ideas for how to use Princess Sparkles (despite the beginning two-parter but I digress) but it's probably not for the best for the characters to reflect that.

It's not impressing me, this two-parter. It's not impressing me in the slightest.

But.

Who knows? Maybe part two will be better!

Edited by fredhot16 on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:06:07 AM

It's not that discord can't help but Sparkles doesn't even get the desire to try to unlock it herself!

Twilight did have a blueprint with diagrams of the chest on her wall, so she presumably was studying it offscreen throughout the season.

Sometimes I feel like the only person who didn't hate Season 8.

I didn't hate it.

Though there's very little from this show that I actively hate.

Oh, where? Because I missed that detail.

Either way, that doesn't actually mean anything. If she studied it offscreen, it doesn't mean anything to us because, due to the nature of being offscreen, we don't get to see her studying it and get any information from it. It still means that we don't get to see the thing, much less learn anything about it, for nearly a year.

Plus, allow me to explain: Sparkles only tried to unlock it now because of discord. If he wasn't there to annoy her on how she's a useless Princess, bring her to the mysterious thing of mystery, and suggest that it might help her with that uselessness, she would gone straight on to the old castle to sulk there, as she said she would do.

Her companions certainly wouldn't have taken her to the mysterious thing of mystery because they came with her so that she wouldn't feel alone in her bout of self-pity.

Edited by fredhot16 on Feb 12th 2019 at 6:51:15 AM

Sometimes I feel like the only person who didn't hate Season 8.

I don't hate it. I do think the school premise was pretty stupid though.

Hey, haven't posted in a while, but just came to check in. Noticed this wasn't posted.

Huh, I didn't think we'd get an actual explanation for how Fluttershy keeps becoming Teacher of the Month. This video has important CANON information, including the fact that it's apparently been 17 months since the school opened, and that no, the events of "Non-Compete Clause" didn't get Rainbow and AJ Teacher of the Month.

Beside that, it's just generally cute and charming, not particularly funny on its own. It is funny that this is literally just "if Non-Compete Clause didn't require the characters to be complete idiots", since this has Rainbow and AJ do the obvious and just ask Fluttershy how she keeps winning and then trying her suggestion.

The Fluttershy camera gag is my favourite part. Like, specifically seeing how it always takes her off guard. And how it appears like it's the students' job to take the teacher of the month picture.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 12th 2019 at 5:36:45 PM

A bit of fridge logic on the field trip being canceled due to weather. Fluttershy is a *pegasus*. She can change the weather if she wants to. And even if it's a situation like Look Before You Sleep where they have to make it rain in order to restore the natural order or whatever, that still doesn't explain why she didn't know it was coming. Aren't they supposed to plan the weather in advance?

Maybe it was a last minute scheduling change for the weather.

Actually, what Tirek offers Discord is not the "freedom" we tend to think about, but a Hobbesian freedom, the "state of nature". Tirek is not proposing a freedom from imprisonment or subjugation, but a freedom from government and laws, freedom from restrictions on what actions you can take.

And in that sense, Tirek is absolutely right that Discord is not truly free. The implicit lesson that Discord has to learn here is that some things are more important and valuable than Hobbesian freedom. This show being what that is, that thing is of course Friendship.

Could Tirek be described as an anarchist based on his argument to Discord? He does argue that the Hobbesian state of nature would be an improvement for Discord, after all, and he seeks to overthrow all government, and indeed all means of power (which includes magic) used to control the environment. On the other hand, he only disrupts the power of others to take it for himself. Like most anarchists, he uses the rethoric of anarchy for self-serving purposes. Usually those self-serving purposes are a desire for Hobbesian (or maybe we should say, Discordian) freedom, but for Tirek, the goal is to gain power at the expense of others. He doesn't even seem to particularly value power so much as he wants others to be powerless. A later episode reinforces the idea that Tirek only uses his power for wanton destruction. In a sense, he is a more malevolent, destructive version of Discord.

Maybe that's the real arc for Discord here. It is not about his making friends, but about his coming to grips with the darker, destructive side of chaos, the sort of chaos that does not leave any room for friendship in the first place.