The interesting thing is that I always thought they could've done something with that. Stygian put in his main pre-limbo appearance as the pony of shadows inside the Castle of th Two Sisters, which matches the fact that the legend surrounds the castle in Castle Mania.

Where they differ is in the connection to Nightmare Moon, and how fitting would it be that this guy, who turned evil because he felt he was underappreciated and forgotten, had his own legend, his own name, swallowed by the legend of someone more famous? More ponies knew who Nightmare Moon was, and she was also connected with the castle, so the legends of the Pony of Shadows and NMM became intertwined over time.

It's a fitting irony.

Edited by GNinja on Nov 16th 2018 at 6:25:51 PM

It'd be hard to do something with that on account of the fact that the timeline makes zero sense. The Pony of Shadows was banished long before Nightmare Moon was ever a thing. We know that because the same two-parter also asserted that the Pillars planted the Tree of Harmony just before this fight. This creates a vague indication of events:

• Seeds planted.
• Pony of Shadows banished.
• Tree grows and blooms.
• Celestia and Luna use the Elements of Harmony to banish Discord.
• Celestia pulls the Elements out of storage to defeat Nightmare Moon.

So much time had to pass between the one and the other that there never could have been a time where someone discovered the Pony of Shadows, active and wreaking his malice upon Equestria, and mistakenly went, "It's the wraithful spirit of Nightmare Moon out for revenge!"

It's the equivalent of crediting George Washington for being the father of Genghis Khan.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 16th 2018 at 11:49:06 AM

Tree Of Harmony calls out Starswirl on getting the Elements wrong.

“You are a heroic pony, but your understanding of Friendship has always been flawed.”

Nightmare Moon is an interesting character, I feel.

On the one hand, she's the show's very first villain. She has a prominent place in the show's establishment and the histories of many characters — besides Luna and Celestia's shared and individual backstories, she's why the main characters got together to begin with. She still casts a very large shadow now, and is so tightly woven into the show's internal history and numerous characters' personal stories that by necessity she shows up again and again, in person or not, because there isn't really a way to avoid it. Any episode focusing on Princess Luna, Celestia's history, the "thousand years ago" period, and likely the Elements of Harmony and the mane six's origins as a group will almost inevitably mention her in some form.

On the other, her own characterization and story... well, they're not the strongest. She isn't a truly flat character as such, but her debut gave her a lot less time than later episodes gave, say, Discord, Starlight or Cozy Glow, so her personality and long-term goals (as in what she plans to do after turning off the lights) aren't as well-developed. Like I mentioned earlier, she also didn't do much as a villain — heck, Trixie did more harm in her power-mad rampage than Nightmare Moon did in all her appearances put together — and was all in all a much less challenging foe than others — again, Twilight and the crew likely had to sweat more to oust Trixie with three seasons of experience than they did to defeat Nightmare Moon as a green bunch of bickering acquaintances. This isn't strictly an issue in and of itself, but it clashes with the gravitas she's given in the show — there's a disconnect between the terrible, dangerous figure she's treated as and the figure she was.

There are also the issues with how she was defeated. The unfortunate implications of her being zapped into being good have been gone over at great length in the fandom by now, but that ending still stands out against the way the other villains turned to good of their own agency. That said, this may very well be the first in the list of unintentional signs of the ponies' rather cavalier attitude towards free will :P

Now, this isn't an indictment towards "Friendship is Magic"'s writers — as Tobias pointed out, there was no reason for them to think that the show was in it for the long haul, or for that matter that it would get the attention it did. If the show had wrapped up with seasons 2 or 3, I doubt that the Nightmare Moon thing would have been that much of a problem, overall. Most of the issues with the pilot hinge on the fact that it did not provide strong support for a long-running series or story arcs, but the episode's writers likely had very little reason to think that those were things they would ever have to worry about.

From their perspective, setting up a season-long story arc would likely have meant spending half the show's lifetime setting up something they were barely going to get the chance to use. There really wouldn't have been much reason back then to prioritize workings towards long-running character arcs and worlbuilding. Of course, now that we're between seasons eight and nine of a well-watched show, we end up with one of the franchise's most referenced and visible villains being kind of... kind of underwhelming, in hindsight.

Well. Any damn fool can predict the past, as they say.

Regarding the Pony of Shadows, one interesting theory I heard, and which I am considering inserting into my personal headcanon, is that "Pony of Shadows" is a title that tends to be applied to most evil pony or pony-like entities associated with dark themes — historically, although it was first used for Stygian, it would also have been applied to King Sombra, Nightmare Moon and the unspecified entity haunting the Castle of the Two Sisters.

One thing worth noting is that in his journal, Starswirl refers to Stygian as transforming into a pony of shadows, not the Pony of Shadows. It implies that he was thinking of it as more of a general term for the sort of thing Stygian became than an individual name for his new persona.

Just because it came first doesn't mean it couldn't have been co-opted by NMM over time. That's my point. He was so forgettable that he got consumed despite coming first. If the legend began as "There was this shadowy monster I saw at the Castle of the Two sisters", that could then become a part of the NMM legend after that whole thing happened. Legends and myths change over time.

NMM feels like wasted possibility. She's such a major character yet she has like five minutes of screentime.

That, and flashbacks to feed Luna's guilt complex.

I think part of the problem is that Nightmare Moon is much more of a fairy tale character than later villains. When read as a fairy tale, the story of Nightmare Moon makes much more sense as a morality tale on the importance of balance, in particular between light and darkness (their opening depicts Luna and Celestia in a yin-yang configuration).

In that regard, it would perhaps also have made more sense to have Luna remain some darker/antagonistic qualities, even just minor ones, as a contrast to Celestia's Big Good character. It could have provided for a Dark Is Not Evil lesson if they had gone that direction. It even works with the Nightmare Moon and Daybreaker extremes that way: both are extremes of a neccesary half of a balanced world.

I've realized that we are now at eight seasons. You know what that means?

I can do this!

Part One: Phantom Luna!

...

Part Three: Starswirl Crusaders!

Part Four: Sparkles Is Not Crash!

...

Part Eight: Pon-Ponlion!

Edited by fredhot16 on Nov 16th 2018 at 4:22:53 AM

I don't get it.

Anyway, my theory regarding Pony of Shadows is that the writers for the pillars saw it as a cool name and decided to reuse it for their basically unrelated villain. Perhaps they intended it as a neat callback for fans.

He was making a Jojo's Bizzare Adventure reference.

Have a grumpy Twilight from the very first episode.

Edited by marston on Nov 16th 2018 at 7:04:51 AM

Also, Daybreaker is such an awesome name.

Post of the Day #2337

Posted by Napoleon De Cheese on 6th Apr 2015 08:09:41 AM - Post #111431 in the new thread

Nothing's happening now so here is an thought: has anyone read any scary tales set in Equesteria and if so, what was the best and why?

They don't have to be from Fimfiction.

Edited by fredhot16 on Nov 17th 2018 at 1:52:45 AM

Too bad :P

The Writing on the Wall was a memorable one, I always felt.

I like "Nightmare" better. Though the "Moon" at the end is silly and totally kills the coolness factor, which was actually my first cue that Luna's a big ol' honkin' dork.

But "Nightmare" itself is a great name for its triple meanings. It stands as a cool-sounding scary bad guy word (nightmare). Its component parts are an accurate description of the character it represents (Luna is the mare of night). And it serves as an inversion of Luna's role as Dream Warden, which the later seasons would establish and develop.

Nightmare is a perfect name, even if Luna did proceed to ruin it by slapping "MOOOOOOOOOON" on the end like a dork.

By contrast, "Daybreaker" is a cool-sounding nonsense word utterly devoid of meaning. It implies that Evil Celestia has some sort of wicked grudge against the sun, announcing her intention to break the day, which is completely at odds with the actual concept of the character. It's a Mad Libs name. "Day + Badass Cool-Sounding Verb".

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 17th 2018 at 5:50:09 AM

The Writing on the Wall was a memorable one, I always felt.

What a coincidence. I was thinking about recommending it, but I wasn't sure if it counted as scary or not.

@ Tobias

Regarding Nightmare Moon, the Nightmare part is also a convenient pun on Luna herself being a mare — I am fully aware that that is not what the "mare" in "nightmare" stands for (for anyone curious, it comes from an old word for goblin or evil spirit), but all the same.

As for Daybreaker, I think it's supposed to be a riff on "daybreak", i.e. dawn, and her generally violent tendencies.

I started a semi-horror fanfic a while ago. I only got two chapters in, but each 'chapter' was designed to be a short story with its own resolution, so it works fine as a couple of shorts.

Mind you, it's dubious how much it counts as being set 'in Equestria'. The specific setting is based more on Nova Scotia, and the actual horror elements are based on Canadian folklore, ghost stories and traditions.

Post of the Day #2338

Posted by Sky Strike on Sat, 26th May '12 3:26:44 PM - Post #206032 in the old thread

totally read shifting as something else,wrf brain

What are Crystal Ponies?

They are a kind of pony that live in the Crystal Empire.

Edited by storyyeller on Nov 18th 2018 at 6:32:52 AM

I meant biologically, if that's applicable.

Edited by fredhot16 on Nov 18th 2018 at 5:04:01 AM

They're very slightly transparent, as it turns out.