Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
It's nice to see so many disparate groups uniting to condemn Netanyahu, his alliance with racial supremacists is shameful and deplorable.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -HylarnUniting in the face of naked, unapologetic fascism.
Because of course.
What did Netanyahu think was going to happen when he started wearing a sandwich board instead of using dog whistles?
Edited by Euodiachloris on Feb 25th 2019 at 6:02:34 PM
Between that and the Centrist Unity ticket, we might be seeing the end of Netanyahu's grasp on power. Maybe now we'll see the possibility of peace become something to even hope for again.
Or, considering the world the past few years, things might be about to get much, much worse.
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerIf he leaves, about damn time. He’s the second most punchable face in the eastern hemisphere after Putin.
Yeah, I can see why there'd be a market for painkillers there.
Disgusted, but not surprisedIt caused a bit of controversy in the UK:
Anger over failure to condemn Netanyahu’s far-right tie up
“This is moral cowardice and the height of hypocrisy.
“The Board made statements when Trump was elected. They host hustings during elections, and even called on candidates to declare where they stand on Jewish issues.”
He continued: “Turning a blind eye to racism in Israel, and neither is sitting back as these views are encouraged into the mainstream and perhaps into a future government.”
In a letter to the Board, deputy Joe Millis wrote: “This party has leaders who call to expel non-Jews from Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, the banning of equality for LGBT people and the outlawing of mixed marriages.
“They will also forbid progressive Jews – who make up a majority of world Jewry and 30 percent of the Board – from having any foothold in the national homeland.
“Most of the party’s members are devotees of Meir Kahane, whose party was banned in Israel and whose sister organisation in the US, the Jewish Defence League, is proscribed in America as a terrorist group.”
He added: “I was told by [Board President] Marie [van der Zyl] that the Board doesn’t interfere in other countries’ elections. All well and good. However, this is not by any stretch of the imagination ‘interference’; this is expressing anger at the lack of morality of cosying up to a group which if it were a British party would be to the right of the British National Party and National Front.”
Millis asked van der Zyl and senior vice-president Sheila Gewolb: “Would you stay silent if the ruling Christian Democrats in Germany courted neo-Nazis? This is no different.
“How can the Board possibly be expected to be taken seriously on the immorality of Labour anti-Semitism, if it won’t speak out on the Israeli ruling party’s lurch to racism and homophobia in the Jewish state?
“It’s an open goal for every Corbynista who thinks the Board is acting on behalf of the Netanyahu government.”
But several deputies contacted Jewish news to back the president. Gary Mond, a deputy for JNF UJK, said: “It is, in my view, wholly wrong for the Board to get involved in any way whatsoever in the Israeli elections. Like most people, I personally condemn Otzma Yehudit, but believe it is for native Israelis alone to participate in the debate. It is not appropriate for the Board of Deputies, as a British communal body, to voice an opinion on this matter. To do otherwise would be regarding as inappropriate interference.”
Another deputy, Jacob Lyons, said: “Marie van der Zyl’s lack of comment should be applauded. It would be no more appropriate for her to criticise Prime Minister Netanyahu’s choice of coalition than it would be for her to criticise Prime Miniater May’s choice of coalition . AIPAC as a non-partisan organisation should take example from her and the Board’s leadership.”
It's worth noting that the Board of Deputies has had quite a lot to say about Labour, the UK's main opposition party, so this is not a manifestation of a general principle of neutrality on their part.
What's precedent ever done for us?Peter Beinart submitted this
Pretty much hits the nail on the head.
Edited by LordYAM on Mar 3rd 2019 at 8:57:07 AM
Heard about that, it's as terrible as it is unsurprising. He allied with racial supremacists and know he's merely taking that to the next level.
It's just vile.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -HylarnAt this point he does not care how racist he is because he knows if the corruption charges remove him from office it makes no difference because he won't have to worry about elections,that's how I read him anyway
New theme music also a boxCan I just say it's a special kind of irony that a Jewish Politician is hobnobbing with far-Right figures?
Because even for Bibi, that's breathtakingly cynical.
What next, Arab Muslims in the Golden Dawn?
I hold the secrets of the machine.There is this Syrian "Social Nationalist" group fighting with Assad.
Edited by TerminusEst on Mar 11th 2019 at 3:11:53 AM
Si Vis Pacem, Para PerkeleDear god, bibi is stupid.
Forty minutes ago, two missiles were fired at Tel Aviv from Gaza. One hit an open field and one was intercepted. News from a few minutes ago (everything's still fresh, so nothing is clear) is Hamas leaders are going underground into their bunkers, but it's assumed that the retaliation will only involve (or at least, that seems to be the plan) the destruction of military infrastructure, nothing more. With Bibi realizing that he's no longer got anything to lose anymore, who knows?
"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent."Qassams, I'm guessing, since there were only two and one of them landed in a field. The folks who launched them are probably about to have a very unpleasant time from Hamas.
What's precedent ever done for us?From what I understand, the missiles were identified as Fajrs. That's one of the reasons this incident is exceptional. Fajrs are expensive stuff, someone might've been trying to make a point.
"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent."Could be Islamic Jihad? It's kind of unusual for Hamas to just plink off a couple of their better missiles without accompanying them with a swarm of Qassams and making it absolutely clear why they're doing it.
What's precedent ever done for us?The current claim from Gaza (through Egyptian channels) appears to be that the launch was due to untrained field operatives accidentally pressing the wrong buttons (yes, really). Israel hit a hundred military targets last night. We'll see how this develops.
"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent."I mean, that's genuinely not implausible. Not like Hamas is doing great for trained manpower (or well-maintained weapons with working safeties), and the scale and timing of the attack is bizarre.
Edited by Iaculus on Mar 15th 2019 at 7:01:14 PM
What's precedent ever done for us?Seems rioting is currently taking place in Gaza, and possibly has been for a while. The populace is displeased that Hamas leadership uses international aid money to live in luxury instead of investing in public infrastructure. Hamas is shooting them in the streets.
"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent."<Spit Take> Hamas is doing what to the rioters?!
Edited by MarqFJA on Mar 16th 2019 at 2:04:30 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Wait, doesn't Hamas have a track record for this sort of thing?
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
From the NYT
Mr. Netanyahu, his future imperiled by prosecutors and political challengers alike, has enraged Jewish leaders in Israel and the United States by striking a bargain with a racist anti-Arab party whose ideology was likened by one influential rabbi to Nazism. Even pro-Israel groups in the United States that prefer to air their disagreements quietly have issued public condemnations.
The furor has aggravated already fraught relations between Israel and Jews in the diaspora, undercutting American and European Jewry’s efforts to fight anti-Semitism at a time when it is on the rise on both continents.
The embattled Mr. Netanyahu, grasping for every potential vote, has turned to the extremist party Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power, whose leaders have a long history of expressing support for violence against Palestinians, expulsion of Arabs from Israel and the occupied territories, and a ban on intermarriage or sex between Jews and Arabs.
The prime minister arranged for the organization to merge into a somewhat more mainstream party of religious Zionists, the Jewish Home. That pact, announced Wednesday, could easily catapult Otzma Yehudit from the disreputable fringe into Israel’s next governing coalition.
Otzma Yehudit’s leaders proudly call themselves disciples of Meir Kahane, the Brooklyn-born anti-Arab militant who served a term in Israel’s Parliament in the 1980s before his Kach party was outlawed in Israel and declared a terrorist group by the United States. He was assassinated in 1990.
Much as Kach did, Otzma Yehudit’s platform calls for annexing the occupied territories, rejecting a Palestinian state, expelling “enemies” of Israel — a euphemism for Arabs — and taking “ownership” of the Temple Mount. The site, in Jerusalem, is holy to both Muslims and Jews, and is overseen by Muslim clerics under Jordanian supervision.
The pact between Mr. Netanyahu and the Kahanists set off a predictable eruption from liberal Jewish groups like J Street and Americans for Peace, as well as the Union of Reform Judaism, which normally stays out of Israeli politics.
But the outrage was not limited to the left.
On Friday, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the American lobbying group known as Aipac, and the American Jewish Committee, both of which rarely weigh in publicly on Israeli politics, declared Otzma Yehudit’s ideas “reprehensible.” They vowed not to have any contact with its leaders even if they become part of the next government.
In an equally extraordinary step, Rabbi Benny Lau of Jerusalem, a pillar of religious Zionism, repeatedly assailed the merger over the weekend, warning on social media that “the defilement and destruction of the land serves as a guarantee for the loss of the land.”
Rabbi Lau lamented that the prime minister seemed concerned only with winning re-election, and, from his pulpit at the Ramban Synagogue, likened Kahanism to Nazism and its ideas to the Nuremberg Laws.
“The entry of the racist doctrine into the Knesset is the destruction of the Temple,” he wrote on Facebook on Sunday.