![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Except Salem didn't cast him aside? Cinder did, and she, again, lied about it.
Since Salem got two relics (which she needs to summon the gods and destroy the world) out of the whole deal, I think she'd be fine ignoring the death of a pawn for gaining two trophies for the price of one.
Plus, how was she supposed to break him out? Again, Atlas had a force field up at the time and once it was down, she was busy with her Grim siege.
Edited by ssjSega on May 23rd 2022 at 7:27:46 AM
I think her deciding to leave Watts to rot in jail until there was a pressing reason to get him back is totally fine; he's useful, but not indispensible. It feels more eh that she's not calling Cinder out when she wakes up to find her team short of the two people Cinder likes the least with a very convinient story about how the last quesiton in the relic of knowledge got used. That's a TEXTBOOK example of Cinder putting her own interests before Salem's. Letting this slide is just asking for her to pull this sort of shit again.
Which makes me wonder if Salem genuinely bought Cinder's excuse...or if Cinder might be more important to Salem's plans than either she or the audience realizes.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 23rd 2022 at 10:36:27 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Neo was not one of the people Cinder liked the least, I think she would be glad that Neo was dead, at the start of the Volume she was annoyed at Cinder collecting another 'Asset'. And either way, her leaving him to rot until he proved Use again shows that Salem does not take any particular interest or sees specific use in Arthur.
Even if she knew any of what Cinder did, from what she sees, some of her main enemies are dead and now she is halfway to getting all the relics, the fact the last question is gone would be unfortunate but ignorable when the results were like this
If encouraging her would encourage Cinder to do something like this again, then Salem would likely Prefer she did something like this
Edited by Snoketrope on May 23rd 2022 at 9:47:36 AM
The First man
Salem may want her servants to put her needs before theirs, but if them serving their needs just so happens to benefit her needs, I think she's more than willing to let it slide.
And considering that Cinder is her main Maiden and the key to opening the vaults/getting the relics...
Edited by ssjSega on May 24th 2022 at 6:19:40 AM
Oh, bother.
Salem's willing to let a lot slide if it means she's one step closer to killing everything.
Disgusted, but not surprised
What you say is true in the literal sense. He did sacrifice an arm. He did sacrifice his reputation. He didn't sacrifice his mental health (I'll come back to this one). He also sacrificed friendships and alliances.
In terms of meaningfulness — weight of sacrifice — Winter is right. He didn't sacrifice anything that was meaningful to him. It was therefore an easy decision to make. For most people, sacrificing an arm is an insane thing to choose to do, and it is. It's usually a sign that someone is in desperate circumstances — be that physical, mental, or both. For Ironwood, however, the choice was disturbingly easy by comparison. I think that's deliberate. He spent Volume 7 debating the value of sacrificing his humanity because he viewed it as a weakness; he believed that Salem had no humanity, and that her lack made her so formidable. When he shot Oscar, it wasn't just about Oscar. It was about him making a decision to "shoot" his friendship with Ozpin; it was about him "shooting" his humanity. The decision to kill Oscar was ultimately a decision to kill his own humanity.
When Watts commented on his metal arm, he was assuming (as most people would) that a person who had lost one arm to metal will protect their other arm from the same fate; they won't want to go through it again. The surprised realisation on Ironwood's face suggests Watts gave him an epiphany: his biological arm is a weakness; replace it with something "better"; that was the moment he decided to sacrifice what made him weak: his humanity.
The difference between Ironwood's sacrifices and others is that he made the choice for himself, but took everyone else's choices away; he sacrificed the things he thought were holding him back, making it less a sacrifice and more "taking out the rubbish"; and the sacrifices he forced on others meant the difference between life and death for them. When you get rid of what's holding you back, you're not making a sacrifice; you're making yourself leaner, stronger, more efficient. You're making yourself better. Forcing sacrifice on others, however, increases suffering, resentment, division, strife.
Ironwood didn't sacrifice mental health because he was struggling to acknowledge it in the first place. When someone struggles with mental health, they usually need professional support and guidance. A person cannot be helped until they're ready to ask for it and receive it. A terrible thing happened in his past that left deep scars — physical and mental. He's strongly implied to have never faced it, so has never received support for it. You can only sacrifice you mental health if you've faced it and made a choice. By avoiding it, you avoid the choice.
To cut a long story short (too late, I know), yes, in a literal sense, Ironwood did sacrifice certain things. However, in terms of weight and meaning, Winter is right — he sacrificed nothing. Ironwood takes the literal view, which is he's baffled (and resentful) people don't see it the same way he did. Winter is looking at weight and meaning, which is the position others take, too.
He didn't need to. He wouldn't have acted any differently to Oscar. His wording might have been more eloquent, but he would have said the same things. We actually have a solid hint for this in the episode.
Oscar tries to tell Ironwood how fear affects people, and that it's how we handle it that matters most. He then tries to draw Ironwood's attention to the big picture being about Remnant standing together. He then says "Then you're as dangerous as she is, James".
- That line he says is the single most Ozpin comment he has ever made. He even calls him "James", which is the first time he has ever done so. Ozpin called Ironwood that, he'd been calling him "General" or "Ironwood" until then. It's why Ironwood reacts so strongly to it, and why his response is so full-circle to his V2 introductory demand for Ozpin to call him "James" not "General". Since Oscar's response is pure Ozpin, it's safe to assume that Ozpin would have said that exact same line.
- When we hear Ozpin's monologue about fear, this is exactly what Oscar was trying to tell Ironwood. When Oscar lands, he mentions "these memories". Ozpin wasn't talking in that moment, Oscar was remembering this speech from somewhere in Ozpin's past (I have theories, but I'll save it for a different post). And the reason Oscar was recalling that speech is because he was almost remembering it when arguing with Ironwood. It's like Ozpin pushes the memory to the forefront of Oscar's mind so that he can recall in full the memory he was trying to grasp when dealing with Ironwood. This is the bit where I say Ozpin would have been more eloquent than Oscar — because Ozpin has these memories, whereas Oscar's not fully merged yet, so doesn't recall them quite as easily. Yet.
- The notion of Remnant standing together, which would be shattered if Atlas abandoned everyone to flee, is the entire reason for Ozpin's immortality. And Ozpin reiterates in V8 how he's becoming increasingly concerned by how difficult it is to unite people, and that they need to find a way to bring everyone together. That was the point Oscar was trying to make to Ironwood with his Big Picture comments.
We already knew before Volume 7 had even finished airing that Volume 8 was already being written. By the time people were arguing about Ironwood at the end of the volume, Volume 8 had already been written.
Plus, Ironwood told us he'd shoot his own men in Volume 3, and his very first appearance in the show ever (in Volume 2) consisted of him marching his army into Vale without any warning or permission because he decided that it was his job to protect Vale, and he was so convinced of his rightness that he didn't bother discussing it with Vale and muscled into controlling Vytal Festival security at the very first chance he got.
At the end of the day, Ironwood's behaviour in Volume 8 wasn't much different to his behaviour in Volume 2, it's just that the extremity of the situation, stakes and decisions that were different, along with the scope of his control and authority.
That is not a loose end. The "captain goes down with the ship but you don't see them actually die" is a pretty standard death concept — there are two common types of that scenario: the heroic/redemptive one (the captain Going Down with the Ship bravely buying time for others and then being one with the vessel he loved) and the villainous one (the captain is forced to go down with the ship for Karmic Death reasons).
I do think the God of Light knew what the consequences would be if the pair found each other again. After all, he created the physical Relics, one of which can see the future (or "possible futures" determined by choices that are made, I suspect is what it really does). So, if his creation can see possible futures, he must be able to as well.
Meanwhile, I think the fairy tales book version of the Two Brothers gives is the key to what may be going on with the gods. It points out several times that Dark came to the conclusion that humanity only achieves its best when they face adversity. It's a very similar concept to Salem's V3 speech, where she comments about humanity being a threat when banded together against a common enemy. Dark secretly made the Grimm stronger, and Light secretly gave humanity a "gift" to fight back against the Grimm. When they found out what the other was doing, they started fighting again until they both agreed to depart the planet.
Upon realising they couldn't escape the planet without destroying it, Dark wanted to do it while Light didn't. Light suggests the compromise of giving humanity a Secret Test of Character: if humanity passes, Light gets his way; if humanity fails, Dark gets his way.
Here's the thing though. That "gift" is clearly the SEW, which Jinn heavily implies comes from Ozma, and that's implied to be connected to the God of Light's resurrection.
So, between that fairy tale and Jinn's vision, I think this might be what's going on:
- Dark gave Salem power over the Grimm to make them more dangerous.
- Light resurrected Ozma in a way that can activate the SEW blood line. This is why he needed Ozma to stay away from Salem because he needed Ozma to form relationships with other women. If he got together with Salem, that would jeopardise the plan, and make it take generations longer to get going.
- Ozma and Salem reuniting makes the two Brothers officially aware of what the other's been doing, so Light suggests making the mission brief he's given Ozma official.
- Once Ozma and Salem fall apart, Dark gives Salem a new purpose — one that aligns with his interests: if Salem can make humanity irredeemable, Dark gets his wish for the planet to be destroyed and Salem gets her wish to die.
- Meanwhile, Light doesn't actually need Ozma to succeed at his mission to "win" against his brother. Every day Ozma prevents Salem from succeeding, is another day the world gets to keep existing, which is what he wants. So, he gets his way by default — status quo is a victory for Light.
So... in short, I mostly agree with you: rather than both gods wanting a Forever War, it's Light who wants it. Dark wants the world destroyed, but Light wins for as long as its destruction keeps being prevented for one more day.
Salem only comes across their radar because she went to them directly, and started manipulating them. She also wasn't intended to be an example to others. It was only ever about her. The sole reason the moon is broken is because Dark wanted Salem to have a constant reminder of the difference in power level between her and them every single time she looks at the night sky.
The gods do not understand humanity. They have an experiment going that they want specific outcomes from, and they're constantly disappointed that humanity isn't doing this. I think that if the resolution of this show's plot involves the heroes confronting the gods, it'll be to point out to them that they made a race that has the power to choose it's own future. They therefore need to back off and let that future unfold. After all, let's say Oz unites humanity and the gods decide humanity is redeemable, so they fix Humanity Revised to become Humanity Secondus, that means the Faunus are doomed. When it was Humanity Prime, it was only humanity. Faunus didn't exist. So, if the gods restore humanity to that equivalent state, the Faunus are likely to transformed into "humans", too. I would therefore expect the argument to be made that they have no right to destroy the life that exists, or the future that it can walk itself towards.
She made it pretty clear in both Volume 6 and 8 why she's not calling out Cinder for the lie. She only objects to her subordinates working towards their own desires when they interfere with her ability to work towards her own. If they manage to do both at the same time, she doesn't care.
The only thing she's interested in is obtaining the two Relics. She's clearly not really that interested in the Maiden power for the magic itself, it's more the Relic connection that she's after. Whether there will still be a need for magic after all four Relics are in play, will be interesting to see, but if there is a need, I expect it to be Relic connected (with an unhealthy dose of spite towards Ozpin mixed in).
As to Cinder being a threat. The only thing Hazel did that bothered her was burning her alive. Everything else he did, even smashing her to pulp, was something she just brushed off. She lets her immortality do all the work for her. People also focus on Cinder lying, but not Salem lying at the same time. She said "In pursuit of a new world, no cost is too great". Cinder's clearly been fed the "new world" lie, too.
So, as far as Salem's concerned, Cinder can't kill her and she's got Cinder clocked, whereas Cinder believes Salem's lies and can be killed. Salem knows Cinder's desires are meaningless if she achieves her own desire of destroying the planet, so from her perspective, Cinder isn't a threat.
Edited by Wyldchyld on May 24th 2022 at 4:49:03 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
The issue I see is less with Cinder posing at threat to her, and more with Cinder having the potential to catastrophically damage "the plan" with her antics, putting her back to square one where all the relics are in Oz's hands. As far as whether Cinder buys into Salem's lie, my suspicion is that she doesn't actually care whether its true or not, for Cinder, Salem is just a stepping stone to her own personal power, the only thing learning the truth would change is the timetable for her sudden yet inevitable betrayal.
OTOH this might be the point. Salem loses (in part) because she gives so little regards for HR that she saw no problem with her most self-interested and disloyal minion killing off the most competent, reliable one.
Anyway, the whole reason I'm harping on this so much is that volume 7 was surprisingly free of the typical Idiot Ball / Villain Ball that most seasons of this show have suffered from to varying degrees.
Random tangent, but anyone else think Ozma's immortality is actually way harder to deal with than Salem's? Perusing the good old SCP Foundation wiki, you can literally find hundreds of creative ways to effectively neutralize something that is unkillable and indestructible, but localized. In fact, Complete Immortality is quite easy to turn into A Complete Prison, on account of the immortal being rather tolerant to abusive storage conditions. An immortal who respawns as a new, totally random person upon death and otherwise dies just like anyone else is...challenging to find a permanent solution for, to put things mildly.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 10:06:19 AM
I'm a bit late but
? This was one of the worst things you've could have sent to me.I consider that scene a humanizing element to Ironwood. He really did believe he was doing what was right. Its enough to see that, even physically beaten and betrayed and on his last, he still tries to do some good by neutralizing Salem or Cinder. I found that poignant.
Glass half full. Wasn't intended with the purpose of harm.
Agreed on that.
I feel like they were trying to make him Rescued from the Scrappy Heap after he lost in Volume 5.
RWBY has been all about Word of God for a while now and I loathe that.
You say that. We all just going to pretend the cut to black wouldn't be revealed to be a Fake Out seasons later. Cue a flashback to Ironwood firing, missing, and Raven portal-ing to save his ass so he could return in Volume 10.
Why does Raven have a portal to James, you ask? Well because they smashed at one point of course.. Best tactical decision Ironwood ever made. It was more about having a future exit strategy than pleasure for Ironwood certainly. He even kept a little pager he could press to alert Raven he was in trouble.
Edited by FOFD on May 24th 2022 at 10:40:27 AM
Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).
Oh, bother.
Ozma's reincarnation cycle is way less convenient for him. On top of the ethical issues of overwriting another person which is a process he seems unable to stop, this means he has periods of "downtime" between each life. It may not mean starting over from scratch every time, but he probably has lost a lot of progress in the past.
Salem meanwhile rezzes almost immediately even if she's completely destroyed. She has no real downtime. The only possible downside is that she seems to become less human and more Grimm — note that when she had a family with Ozpin she lacked the black veins that are all over her body in the present day.
And SCP Foundation isn't really good proof that it's "easy" to contain a powerful immortal being. Not only are the conditions listed usually extremely complex and / or have ethical issues of their own, a lot of the entries with such beings make it very clear that said measures aren't actually enough. Heck, with some of them it's very much implied if not outright stated that said beings are "contained" because they find it amusing.
Edited by M84 on May 24th 2022 at 10:41:04 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Hell, within the context of RWBY, he was only gone for at most a few months post V3, and according to Tyrian, that's actually very short by his standards.
In other words, at max, it could take many years for Ozpin to reincarnate on a normal basis between deaths.
Something that's just unkillable and conventionally powerful without is on the low end of the threat spectrum in that setting*, and can in principle dealt with by many, many means that seem perfectly feasible in this one. It's possible some kind of divine intervention opplznerfBS that means literally any means of incapacitating Salem will fail and Ozpin has tried literally everything, but like many things in this show we have to turn to headcanon. Leaving aside the whole From a Single Cell thing, Salem isn't that much power powerful individually than the Maidens, which reduces the problem of keeping her down long enough to implement some kind of long term solution to a matter of numbers and firepower.
* As opposed to something that's invicible because no conscious entity can take action that would harm or impede it, or which can literally delete anything or anyone from reality that it's aware of. The point is that Complete Immortality, even when it comes with superpowers powers, is solvable with sufficient time and resources unless you bring in some rather storybreaking stipulations. Ozpin's respawning really isn't *without* some kind of secondary vulnerability. In RWBY's case its that Salem has a win condition which is infinitely more achievable than Oz's.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 11:43:22 AM
Oh, bother.
She's not just "conventionally" powerful. She's literally a force of destruction incarnate.
And she totally outclasses Maidens. Remember that the Maidens' power seems to have originally been a part of Ozpin's own magic. Salem meanwhile still has all of the magical power she originally had as a pre-Remnant human.
Also, while Ozpin's form of immortality means it's harder to pin him down since he essentially has a whole planet's worth of extra lives, he has to more or less start over each time he dies.
Salem otoh just comes back right on the spot.
About the only weakness Salem has is that she doesn't seem to be a trained fighter like pretty much everyone else in the show. She relies entirely on her powers. That still works for her since she's just that much more powerful than everyone else.
Another point against using SCP Foundation as proof that it's totally easy to trap an immortal superpowered entity is that many of the entries that actually feature such entities have containment procedures that are more about either tricking said entities or negotiating with them.
Edited by M84 on May 24th 2022 at 11:52:34 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
x7 Are going to use a theory? We can't just rely of theories this time cause that will give vastly different readings of the show to everyone and what if the creators come and debunk that theory later? When I mean Ozpin should talked to James I meant give them closure, Ozpin knew of James long before Oscar so they should have something to say. What you said about him losing his arm because it represent weakness to him is just a headcanon. And I'm was talking about my mental health as in the show effected my real life. I don't doubt, Ironwood wasn't taking care of his mental health, but how did you misread my comment into thinking it was about Ironwood sacrificing his mental health?
Also considering the fact RWBY has done the fake out death with Cinder and Neo, and brought Penny back. At this point unless we see the body or the creators words, then it becomes a loose end.
x5 I can see it humanizing it that he felt fear and what seems to be remorse, but at that point he lost everything and just gave up. His death is the worst thing to show to me cause it reminds me of that lost. I mean humanize him in Volume 8 to remind us he was a hero and is still human, so we feel that tragedy.
Edited by rinrinboss on May 24th 2022 at 9:00:16 AM
She's about as powerful as all four of them + Oz. Weaker actually except for the rapid resurrection given Oz reduced her to a stain on the dirt, and sufficient firepower (Ozma's once in every few lifetimes nuke, and presumably that bomb Ironwood had) can keep her down for hours, which should be more than enough with proper planning. Considering the circumstances, its not surprising he didn't have some kind of permanent prison in place*. Why he isn't trying to do that is anyone's guess. In contrast to the canon win conditions, Oz has unlimited retries, Salem only has to lose once.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 11:52:34 AM
Oh, bother.
You're forgetting that she recovered from that magic nuke attack extremely quickly.
If the only thing that can keep her down is a magic nuke attack that takes lifetimes to charge, that's not a reliable way to stop her.
Edited by M84 on May 24th 2022 at 11:54:16 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
It's not about stopping her, it's about incapatiating her then putting her into a situation where any and all means of escape just lead to a perpetual death loop. Mine would be casting her in a block of tungesten, the melting point of which is an order of magnitude higher than the flash point of human flesh, and given fire seems to kill them just fine, grimm goop as well.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 11:57:49 AM
Oh, bother.
She'd probably just blow herself up then rezz later.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Scale up the material until its beyond her output. As I said, it's a problem of resouces and numbers. There's a huge number of Required Secondary Powers for there not to be at least one and probably several ways of doing what I proposed, and Oz has unlimited* shots to get it right.
* As many as it takes for Salem to reach her win condition.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 12:02:51 PM
Oh, bother.
He doesn't have unlimited chances. It's not like literally everyone on Remnant is a compatible host.
Edited by M84 on May 25th 2022 at 12:05:31 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Salem's win condition is much more likely to be the limited factor there, but I find it rather weird that Oz's gameplan is to stall indefinitely rather than working towards something like that. Thematically it makes sense, but from the in-universe perspective...
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh yeah, Oz has the relics, which can do stuff like create pocket dimensions, predict the future, tell you anything you want to know, and presumably keep Salem down for even longer than the magical nuke.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 12:06:30 PM
The sleepiest good boi
Maybe they could use the Staff to create a portal to the in-between dimension and push Salem off of there, make her Beach World's problem now.
Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Oh, bother.
Had the Relics. Salem has the Staff.
Disgusted, but not surprised
He had them for at least a hundred years or so, plus all four maidens under his command. Unless he's completely braindead we have to assume he asked Jin about ways of building a Can for Salem, but I can't think of any reason the answer would be "you can't", especially with access to the relic of creation, unless its "The gods will call hacks and noclip her back to Remnant, so don't bother."
I'd actually accept that answer btw, but for no we have no indication Oz even pursued that kind of win condition. Or a mutual lose condition for both sides where one or more of the relics is rendered permanently unattainable, either as an endstate or a deterrent.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 24th 2022 at 12:18:02 PM
Why did Ozpin think using an easily removable staff to keep a floating city that's above another city without a backup plan was a good idea? Like what if the maiden powers went to a not-so-good woman who plans to use the staff for herself, then what would they do? If they didn't have the staff then everyone would have died. That's what Ozpin created when he decided to use that without a backup plan we are told of. I know because the writers in the commentary said that they wanted Atlas to fall and it was a plan since the beginning, but in-universe what is the reason? Same with Salem getting the relics and passing by Ironwood, they said it was a pre-volume 1 idea, but with how have gone so far, the only reason Salem got the staff was because nobody tried to throw into a poral or even with them into the void. So the heroes end up losing the things they fought for and Salem was one of the most powerful relics that can create anything.
Edited by rinrinboss on May 23rd 2022 at 7:28:47 AM