RWBY General Discussion

Still don't think so. She was operating on entirely wrong assumptions rather than simply making dumb mistakes. Then again, given the stress of Cinder's coercion and having just said her goodbyes to Vernal, she probably wasn't in the best state of mind anyway.

In hindsight, she must have been privy to what Maidens are and what kind of high-profile target they are. What did she hope to accomplish by picking up Spring? Short-term survival?

If Too Dumb to Live requires the Charachter to Die, I reocmend someone just change that stuff to Stupid Evil.

How idiotic Raven's plan was kind of depends on whether she'd have had any way of figuring out on her own how to use the relic; Ozpin certainly must have at some point. If she could get Jinn out, she'd have been able to ask "how can I stay hidden from Ozpin and Salem's forces?" and all sorts of useful questions.

I'm still not entirely sure she (and/or Lionheart) wasn't the one who used the first of the relic's questions for this century, since there's surely some significance to one of the questions being used, and I can't think of anything Ozpin would've asked.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 16th 2019 at 9:07:02 AM

According to the trope Description, Too Dumb to Live doesn't have to result in death, just that their actions really should have killed them.

Wasn't saying Raven is a good person just saying there are a lot of details regarding the last spring maiden that are not exactly clear.

What we do know is she ran away due to the pressure of her new role and if what Raven claims is true her training was not going well. Yang really didn't make anything a lie she just pointed out the hypocrisy of Raven's logic regarding strength.

So either Raven lied regarding her reasons or in her own head she considered removing the burden through murder to be a kindness. Which I really wouldn't put it past her to think that.

Obviously the last spring maiden probably didn't think that considering she probably actually trusted Raven.

I kind of agree, but kind of don't. Mostly because my favorite designs were in Vol 3, when the art had this comic book feel to it, with bright colors and those wide, dark outlines. Every subsequent volume has more of a streamlined style to it. Just more ordinary.

I'm not particularly distraught by Papa Schnee and his mini me's less fantastical outfits and samey color schemes. That they dress so ordinarily compared to Weiss helps set them apart, show how they live in radically different worlds, practically different realities. And their world has no place for Weiss and she doesn't want to be there anyway.

Besides, if the male half of the family is going to be criticized for the strong family resemblance, shouldn't the same criticism be extended to Winter? It's not like we don't already have an Ice Queen expy.

Moreover, Weiss's color scheme is white because, as our look into her household shows, it's her family's color scheme. Of course they're all going to have that going for them. While I'm with the video on not liking her clothes new color, I can see why the initially stand-off-ish Weiss went from ice white to the more depressed gray she's been wearing since being taken from Beacon and forced back to the family she left.

Can't say the same for Blake's family. Totally with the video on that one. I'd be more satisfied if Blake had more traits of her mother, like Ruby with Qrow, since that seems to be where she got her color scheme from, but nothing comes to mind. Not sold on their complaint about the white in her clothing though. That's always been present to some degree. Heck, even the alternate outfit from Vol 2 the critic praises as faithful to their color schemes had more white than her current outfit.

Yang's problem isn't her clothes, it's that her hair is less puffy. That's pretty much where all her yellow comes from.

And I disagree with the suggestions for adding more red to Ruby's outfit. That just makes it look cluttered.

Edited by Parable on Mar 16th 2019 at 8:17:09 AM

I think people need to stay away from D&D alignments when discussing Raven. It's unhelpful to shoehorn the alignments for a specific roleplay game into... well, everything else in the world, given that this attempt seems to occur with almost every fandom I've ever experienced.

The only thing that matters is how TV Tropes actually tropes alignments.

True Neutral talks about the characters that don't fit 'good' or 'evil', or 'lawful' or 'chaotic', and that they 'could be' (not 'definitely are') described as 'morally bland'.

Now, we have to remember that, when it comes to storytelling, there is no universal concept of 'good' or 'evil'. The individual story itself will give us those designations for that work. This is one of many reasons why I consider attempts to associate D&D alignments with whatever work is being discussed to be 'shoehorning'. D&D alignments are relevant for precisely one thing: D&D.

So, in generalised terms, storytelling tends to make 'good' the forces of the hero (often, but not always, coalescing around a Big Good) against the forces of the driving force of the villains (often coalescing around a Big Bad). Antagonists may be obstacles and obstructions for the heroes, but they are not allies or associates of the villains. They're something else, something different.

RWBY has essentially given us the 'good' and 'evil' forces: these are the forces of Ozpin and the forces of Salem. Anything that does not fall into those two categories needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

In Raven's case, she was originally 'good' (in terms of fighting on behalf of the Big Good) before abandoning the heroes. She has never willingly sided with the defined villains (the forces of Salem). Indeed, despite apparently abandoning the entire Salem/Ozpin war, she was still passing intel along to Ozpin — which isn't really abandoning the cause.

Now, we don't know how old she and Qrow were when they were taken in by the bandit tribe — we don't even know for certain that they weren't born into the tribe. It's only an implication that they were somehow found by the tribe and raised by them.

We know they enroled in Beacon to learn how to kill Huntsmen so that their tribe was protected from the consequences of its activities, and we know that Qrow regards them as thieves and murderers. We know they don't normally deal in trafficking and kidnapping, but only because it's too problematic. They will do it if there's a 'good' reason to do so.

So, Raven and Qrow were raised to be thieves and killers. And neither of them had a problem being thieves and killers until they met Ozpin. Now, somehow he converted both of them to his cause — they trusted him so completely that they abandoned their lives, their tribe and their mission to become genuine Huntsmen who served Ozpin's own mission faithfully.

And then Raven started learning things, things that made her start digging even more, things that made her realise Salem could not be stopped or reasoned with, and which destroyed her faith in Ozpin. At some point, she abandoned his fight and returned back to the tribal life she had given up to resume her original mission (protecting the tribe with her Huntress skills).

However, for Qrow, the abandonment of the tribe and everything he originally stood for, was more permanent, his faith in Ozpin far greater, and his knowledge of Salem far less, than Raven's. Something that apparently baffled her greatly on all points.

So, Raven lives the life of an 'ordinary' threat by the standards of this show. One of the neutral threats that exists in the story. By that, I mean criminals and bandits exist in this world. They aren't good people. They do bad things. But, by the defined good/evil division of this story (which is defined by the plot drivers of the hero and villain's roles and their associates), they are neutral — because they serve neither plot force. They serve a different one.

Remember. Qrow is a thief and a killer. That's how he was raised. That was the life he led. He enroled in Beacon to learn how to kill Huntsmen. And then he met Ozpin. And that changed him. He's one of the good guys because we never saw his life as a thief and a killer. We're only introduced to him as the crusty, grumpy, alcoholic uncle of the hero and most loyal aide to the Big Good. He is one of the good guys.

We know a little bit about why the change was more significant for Qrow than for Raven: his Semblance makes simply 'living' a problem for Qrow. Clearly on some level, he didn't fit in with his sister, his tribe, with anyone because he describes Ozpin as the first person who ever saw past his Semblance to give him a purpose in life — a sense of worth in his own life. That means that he feels that both his tribe and his sister did not.

Now Raven clearly has something going on that we don't yet know about because we still don't know why she abandoned Yang. We don't know the timeline between her abandonment of Yang and her abandonment of Ozpin. Especially since she's apparently broken her 'rule' to keep helping Ozpin even after having abandoned him.

As a bandit who is a thief, killer and occasional kidnapper, we know that Raven is unlikely to be the 'morally bland' character that the True Neutral trope mentions 'could be' part of the trope description, however, 'morally bland' may not be set in stone either — so she might be True Neutral, after all.

That said, the trope does mention the relationship between True Neutral and Wild Card, and the Wild Card route may possibly be a better option for Raven than some of the villainous tropes she's currently been given.

Because, by the 'alignments' of the RWBY, Raven should not be given the tropes that rely on the term 'villain' for their names and primary descriptions. However, there should be a range of antagonist and Wild Card connected tropes that do apply.

The reason I would be loath to apply True Neutral to her is not because of the morality argument. It's the fact she has made a choice to keep helping Ozpin. It may not be the relationship they had in the past and it may not be frequent, but we know that she's broken her own 'rules' to pass intel on Salem to him on more than one occasion and after she officially abandoned the cause. Why? Well, that's as much a mystery as why she abandoned Yang and is yet one more sign among many that we don't know her full story.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 16th 2019 at 3:46:14 PM

I'm planning on sandboxing the character pages based on what little we've agreed this weekend. I figured it might get the ball rolling if I split the pages by what we've got. We can assess what we see and decide what to move around, where. That seemed to be the way to get the subject moving the last time we reorganised the page. And, yes, Sandbox 1.0 will exclude the Technology page.

No. For a start, Too Dumb to Live requires an actual character death for the trope to even stand a chance of being effect. The only way I can think of for a subversion of the trope to be in effect is if the character's stupidity gets them killed... only for it later to be revealed the character didn't die and the stupid act was a ploy to achieve some goal that required them to fake their death in a stupid fashion.

Since nothing Raven did got her killed, the trope is completely irrelevant.

That's definitely trope misuse.

I can. The creation of Relic Chambers is the most obvious outcome of a question asked of Jinn: the chambers open up in an 'alien' space that has the same effects that Ozma experienced while 'between realms' with the God of Light.

What kind of abilities are required to create and reach such a place? How is a human able to figure out how to get there with no gods around? Why use such a place to hide the Relics? Why make a door that requires a specific Maiden to unlock? Why would any of this occur to Ozpin as the solution for storing away the Relics?

I think the creation of the Relic Chambers required help from Jinn and I won't be surprised if it required at least some of the other Relics as well. And I still won't be surprised if Salem's immortality curse prevents her from being able to enter this 'between realms' space herself, meaning she has to use others to enter those spaces on her behalf — which would explain why she needs the Maidens so badly. So, based on a conversation with Jinn, Ozpin created the Relic Chambers, made the Maidens the keys as an extra layer of protection, and built the Huntsmen Academies around them as yet another layer of protection.

There is an implication the question was used at the end of the Great War (implying that Ozpin actually told the truth about when the question was asked and only lied about how many were asked), which means it would coincide with the creation of the chambers and the academies.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 16th 2019 at 4:07:31 PM

Personally? I think I'm actually down with Raven being Neutral Evil the more I think on it. She's a villain, but not on the Big Bad's team, and has a degree of Complexity. And of course I'm not sure how many Wild Card related tropes would be able to replace them. Or how many there are in general. Also, with wild Card from what I understand is a morally gray, can't decide if there good or evil thing. Raven isn't really "Grey" she's just a somewhat lighter shade of black then the other antagonists. There is a bit of Mystery to her, but I don't think it's quite enough. We know her basic motivations and personality, shes a selfish coward. And ruthless Person who kills innocents or even children for the sake of her own Self Preservation. Yes there are some blank spots But until the show gives Emphasis on that? Her affiliation isn't changed.

I think calling Her"Neutral Evil" is a good compromise. So I still think the villain tropes should stay

You seem to be using 'villain' and 'antagonist' interchangeably. At least, that's how your post comes across to me.

I think those Two Can be Separate but it depends on the Personality. They can be seperate if say, they have the ROLE of a villain(Opposing the protagonist) but a Benevolent or at the very least not Malicious Personality. Raven is both usually an Antagonist in Role and has a very Dark, selfish Personality, and has crossed a LOT of moral lines to go with it. There's complexity there yes, that's why she qualifies as an Anti-Villain.

One can be an antagonist without being a villain. In fact any show with a Villain Protagonist relies on this being true.

Also I had forgotten that Raven was still passing intel to Qrow and by extension Ozpin. So even whilst being a bandit she was helping out the heroes from time to time. I wonder why, was it as simple as the information happened to fall into her lap and she didn't see a reason not to tell Qrow?

Also she was still keeping an eye on him and Yang in Volume 3, even though she had already saved the latter and thus fulfilled her self-imposed obligation.

I still Think calling her an Anti-Villain Would be the Best compromise. I mean we've had People listed there who have crossed LESS lines.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 16th 2019 at 10:30:15 AM

And we've had people who have crossed more lines and are listed as heroes and Anti Heroes.

Edited by Shaoken on Mar 17th 2019 at 4:37:00 AM

There Definitely in the Rarity though, and that's largely due to context

Setting up an ambush to murder your own brother, razing villages to the ground, and murdering what could best be described as a young girl is hardly comparable to anti-heroes like the Punisher or even Hamlet.

Tbf, it was Qrow's fault that Salem found out about the Spring Maiden. And if Raven had done nothing, then Qrow would instead have ambushed her and the tribe and basically kidnapped the Spring Maiden. That was the initial plan when they arrived at Haven academy.

I think Raven is justified in attacking Qrow and Qrow is a hypocrite for saying he betrayed her, when he had planned the same.

Do you mean because Qrow told Leo about where the Spring Maiden was? Qrow was relating information to what he thought was a reliable ally. That said ally wasn't reliable is hardly Qrow's fault.

She was also at Beacon the day Qrow first arrived there and fought Winter — and there's an implication that Qrow doesn't know she was there.

She's sat in the foreground while the fight kicks off in the background. A big black raven with red eyes. She caws once and flies off. So, she's leaving Beacon just as Qrow is arriving.

There's a lot about Raven that hasn't yet been explained.

Maybe the rest of her backstory (i.e. her relationship with Taiyang, why she abandoned Yang, etc.) can be explained in Volume 7 or 8?

I would be surprised if anything about Raven occurred in Volume 7. Raven's information for another day — they haven't even resolved their relationship with Ozpin right now, so I don't think any of his greater mysteries are going to be dealt with for some time. I suspect we're going to have resolve the Maria storyline before older plots like Raven get dealt with, especially if she's linked to some of the biggest mysteries (which she's implied to be).

There's already more than enough set-up for Volume 7 without including Raven: the implications of Adam's scar, Watts' group, Salem and her winged Beringel, whatever is going on with Ironwood, the Schnee Family, the Winter Maiden (especially if she turns out to be Mrs. Schnee), the Volume 4 hints that there is a Mantle rebellion brewing against Atlas, the Relic of Creation, the still unresolved matter of the Relic of Knowledge, Maria, etc.

There is the reference to Taiyang being able to pull strings with Ironwood, which might be one way for Raven to come back into the storyline, given that she was last seen teleporting to Taiyang's location. However, Atlas is already facing a lot of different threads and set-up, so I don't think we need Raven dropped into it either. I think we're not going to see her for a couple of volumes.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 17th 2019 at 5:12:16 PM

It would be nice if the episodes could be longer, with longer seasons. If they said that they could have every episode at twenty minutes (not counting openings and ads), and could still have a 14 episode season, but this would mean a year and a half in between seasons, would people be okay with that?

Volume 7 is set up in Atlas after all, so I think we’re going to find out who the winter maiden is, the SDC's history, as well the inevitable final confrontation between Weiss and her family.

@Wyldchyld:

This is taken straight from the Too Dumb to Live trope description.

Yes, I noticed over the page that someone else said the trope description mentioned death wasn't necessary, which surprised me as that's not correct. The trope history indicates someone changed the trope description in October. I flagged it earlier on the Trope Description Improvement Drive to find out if it's a sanctioned change. A mod has confirmed the trope definitely requires death and asked for the change to be reverted, so it's been reverted.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 17th 2019 at 8:17:33 AM