MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Oh I have no trouble believing the victim. I'm just asking rhetorically. How might the law be equipped to deal with situations like this?
I have no intentions to cast aspersions on him and I also admire his courage in coming forward.
Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Long story short, it's not equipped to handle this. Our legal system only begrudgingly acknowledges sexual misconduct as a crime. It wasn't that long ago that rape was legally defined as
- Forcible, as in violent
- penetration exclusively from the assaulter's penis
- exclusively into the victim's vagina, and nowhere else.
Nothing else qualified as rape.
We've made some progress but we're still coming up short. Why, over in the women's thread, we were just discussing a judge ruling on whether or not the state can force a woman with medical issues to provide sex to her husband. Our legal system is terrible about sex crimes.
Since the victim here is male, the event happened a long time ago, and the perpetrator is a celebrity, that all gives him a zero-percent chance of ever seeing any kind of legal justice. He might be able to sue Cardi for some kind of civic consolation, but odds are she can afford better lawyers than he can.
So if you want to know what can be done legally, the answer is to vote for politicians who want to work towards eroding the stranglehold that rape culture has on our society. Until then, there will continue to be no justice for rape victims, whether male or female.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 4th 2019 at 1:36:42 PM
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I mean she could at least give him back the stuff she robbed him.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Robbery in New York has a five-year statute of limitations. It's legally hers now.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 4th 2019 at 2:44:58 AM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
I meant, as a gesture of goodwill/amends/human progress.
Eh, it being an admission of guilt, she probably wouldn't do that.
Actually, as a rapper, would it be in too poor taste for her audience if she bragged about all the men she's robbed and maybe raped the way Jay-Z brags about moving cocaine by the hundreds of kilos or Snoop Dogg brags about pimping? Or would she stand to get more money from it?
Edited by Oruka on Apr 4th 2019 at 1:52:53 AM
So, um, turns out the guy was lying.
Beautiful.
Ahr river
I have no idea if this guy is backtracking or just wanted to make a mess but either way this is definitely gonna turn this entire conversation into a clusterfuck.
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Shin Megami Tensei IV
Well, we're fucked. Thanks dude, please someone go to beat him.
Watch me destroying my country
Oh, bother.
While we shouldn't be advocating violence here...I'm really angry at this asshole too.
This "joke" is wrong on so many levels. I actually can't even begin to list the ways it's damaging.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Male rape victims got humilliated publically. Especially those who decided to share it in a solitary mood.
Watch me destroying my country
This disgusts me. That a probable false claim to get an ego kick gets called a "joke" is bad enough. But, that it undercut a lot of much-needed support and solidarity? Yick: that's the worst bit, by far — forget the libel aspect.
And, the "joke" was plenty bad enough: didn't this jackass do exactly what women get accused of all the time when they come forward about sexual harassment by a celebrity?
That is, if he made it up.
If he didn't make it up out of whole cloth, retracting it this way is just so all sorts of harmful, that it's really hard to feel for him if even part of it has some basis in truth. :/
I have to wonder if he was pressured by friends to retract his statement, whether it was true or not. The retraction has a sort of 'oh, uh, yeah, who would be such a p***y as to fall for something like that, haha" feel to it, somehow.
Not that it makes it any better - the reasoning for the retraction and the impact the retraction will have on the optics and the case are two separate things. But I do wonder.
It's been fun.
Honestly? Not surprised.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
There are a couple different scenarios for what may have happened here and every single one of them can be summarized as "Toxic Masculinity rides again."
My takeaways:
- I can go back to not thinking that Cardi herself is a rapist.
- This deliberate attack on the veracity of rape victims changes nothing about how rape should be handled or discussed.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 5th 2019 at 9:12:59 AM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
That's if we assume the guy who spoke up was lying about being raped and take the retraction at face value, i.e. that he posted a falsehood and that falsehood has now been confirmed as fake. If the original accusation was true and he was later pressured to retract it to save face, then nobody wins here except a rapist.
I don't know if that's the case, and I don't think we're likely to ever know the truth unless more information comes out from a neutral party, but this is not a case of all roads exonerating Cardi B.
Edited by RedSavant on Apr 5th 2019 at 11:30:41 AM
It's been fun.
He could be an ass that honestly thought he was somehow being "funny", or he could be an actual victim that was payed off or felt societal pressure to somehow recant. But either way, Cardi is definitely not off the hook here. For starters, drugging people (which she already openly admitted to) is extremely dangerous and can be fatal as well as traumatic. She deserves prison for that alone, in my opinion. Secondly, there's other victims that have come forward that should be taken seriously.
"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Ahr river
If we assume there was only drugging and robbing, there's still an awkward situation where you have a lot of rappers with criminal pasts who have not been arrested for it. Like, half the time people consider it part of the whole Credibility of the rapper.
Like I don't think Cardi shouldn't be punished (and if there was sexual assault involved she definitely should) but there's something very systemic about this that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Read my stories!
I'm pretty sure someone of them have been arrested at least once during their youths, before they had careers. That can also be a credibility boost.
Ahr river
Yeah, which really just adds layers to awkwardness of the situation.
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I couldn't disagree more, yes robbery is bad but unlike rape, it can be understandable. She was doing it to survive and I really don't feel comfortable going after her for it when many many rappers can wear their records with a badge of pride.
So yes, if it turns out to be false (and all signs point toward it, I firmly support the principle of generally believing the accusers) then we should let Cardi off the hook.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Queen of Good Things, Honest
There's a wide spectrum between "Innocent of all wrongdoing" and "Not a rapist".
Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 5th 2019 at 6:02:44 AM
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I'm not sure drugging and leaving people in a vulnerable state can really be described as acceptable.
I know all about people stealing to survive, but you can also do it without putting others at risk.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
FUN FACT: I actually have a friend who has experienced both being raped and being drugged/robbed. Here is how she explained the difference.
"People will feel sympathy for you when you are drugged and robbed. But if you are raped, they say it's your own damn fault."
Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 5th 2019 at 6:09:28 AM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Yep. I was not a fan of the bill cosby comparisons when it was just accusations of robbery, but this is in a very different category (you can still argue the difference of a trusted person with celebrity cred v. someone who doesn't, but by that point you're just arguing the scale of abuse to a minutae)
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