LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Not anything in particular. Mormons are a valid branch of Christianity, nice people for the most part, and an interesting sect from a historical standpoint.

The LDS deviates considerably from other Christians on quite a few things, for better or worse. The Book of Mormon for one — Mormons consider it inspired scripture, the rest of Christianity...doesn't. Heck, the more vocal critics of the LDS don't even consider them to be Christian.

edited 6th May '18 3:04:18 AM by M84

Yes, but their more vocal critics often say the same thing about Catholics.

I ended a friendship over one of my lifelong friends refusing to believe Mormons were Christians—which he said, loudly, to our business partners.

Who were Mormon.

And he just dug his heels in deeper explaining why.

I don’t count them as Christian, mostly because “new book that supersedes old book/books” is part of what defines Christianity as separate from Judaism and not just a branch sect. They’re descended from Christianity, but there’s enough of the standard differences that they don’t fit properly. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are kind of in the same boat, at least IMO.

I note the Catholics have the Catechism and Christianity was initially defined by organizing their books around what books counted and didn't—only to lead to many needless persecutions.

Plus, they call themselves Christian.

In short, if you believe in the New Testament, you're Christian.

From what I recall, one of the main differences between Mormonism and most major Christians denominations is that the former is nontrinitarian - and Trinitarianism is kind of a staple of mainstream Christianity.

I assume this is usually one of the sticking points for why Mormons are often considered to be "not Christian".

edited 6th May '18 7:22:31 AM by DrunkenNordmann

Protestants don't believe in the Trinity for the most part.

They believe in the Father and the Son.

Don't Protestants adhere to the Nicene Creed? Because if they do, they're Trinitarians..

Not all of them.

This is getting into a derail, so could you maybe name some examples via PN - I'm genuinely curious.

Just to point out, though: Neither Mormons nor Unitarians nor Jehova's Witnesses are considered Protestant, but their own thing.

As Muslims consider Jesus a prophet wouldn’t they be covered under this definition? Also if you applied this to Judaism (if you belive in the Old Testament you’re Jewish) than Christianity is just a sect of Judaism.

It’s easiyer to use the self-identify rule, if they identify as Christian than they’re Christian.

Also protestant just mean post-Catholic non-Catholic, I’m Anglican but tecnicly protastent, I’m not sure where Eastern Orthodoxy is on the trinity.

edited 6th May '18 7:43:38 AM by Silasw

This conversation is not LGBT related.

This is LGTB rights and religion.

The Mormon situation of being against Same Sex marriage but also being willing to support laws to protect them from harm is interesting when compared to the open intention of harm of other bigoted Christian groups

Like people said, it's much easier to empathise with a group's pain if you have faced similar persecution and normally you don't want the same thing to happen to them. It's probably the reason many LGBT people also support racial equality, etc.

I'm not necessarily denying that, I mean that is still on-topic

We just mentioned Mormons for like 10 posts, because their situation was interesting compared to other Christians bigots. I don't think that it's a derail

edited 6th May '18 8:48:32 AM by KazuyaProta

I think the title is more in the spirit of "LGBT Issues as they relate to religion and vice versa" than just being a thread where we can talk about one or the other.

LGBT Rights AND Religion, not LGBT Rights OR Religion.

If you want to go Boolean.

edited 6th May '18 8:46:14 AM by Elfive

The whole discussion about Mormons came from the survey, and us speculating why Mormons are the only religious group simultaneously in favor of anti-discrimination but against allowing homosexuals to marry. That does necessitate some discussion of the religion itself, since not everyone is familiar with them^note beyond possibly "those annoying teens in suits who knock on my door with their books".

Speaking of my religion and LGBT rights, it's kind of the bait and switch I hate about it re: The marriage issue. The government can't say whether God approves of a union or not, so why the hell should anyone care?

Mind you, Kim Davis (the woman who wouldn't sign gay marriage certificates) is disgustingly the woman who signed my wife and I's marriage certificate.

She's bisexual and wonders if we can get someone else to do it.

edited 6th May '18 11:48:46 AM by CharlesPhipps

On Mormons and Hell, IIRC, they don't believe in Hell so much as what's best described as low class heaven, Heck if you will. It's not horrible, but it's not that nice either.

@69: I think that comes from an certain brand or two of religious beliefs having an strong influence on the legislative process since...Medieval Europe (or probably earlier), and it has maintained it's presence for quite a while until people started asking for changes in the laws to respect their beliefs.

But hardly anyone have the exact same opinion on a lot of things nowadays, and the struggle of getting every state to recognize gay marriage is one of those things.

OK so I'm not quite sure how to get my head around Pope Francis' latest statement on homosexuality.

It’s not difficult, being gay isn’t a sin in the Catholic Church, that’s what he’s saying.

What is a sin is sex not about having a child for a married family, be that gay sex, non-marital sex or martial sex using contraceptives. Now gay people are more screwed when it comes to being able to have non-sinful sex than others, but they aren’t the only group with a desire to sin, non-married people have a desire for sex and it’s just as sinful to act on it.

Which raises the interesting question, if catholic marriages have to be about having kids, what about a gay couple that can have kids due to one of them being a trans person who has not had surgery? Under catholic theology I think they should be able to get married.

Oh and before it comes up, being declared infertile by medical professionals aparently doesn’t count because it’s not 100% acurate, so infertile couples are still okay.

edited 21st May '18 10:05:04 AM by Silasw

https://www.salon.com/2018/05/18/religious-rights-new-battleground-hurting-kids-to-attack-lgbt-rights/

Religious foster organizations are trying to prevent kids from being adopted by gay parents using "religious freedom" as an excuse.

https://wtop.com/parenting/2018/05/kansas-lawmakers-revive-bill-on-faith-based-adoption-groups/

Oklahoma is trying to do it.

edited 21st May '18 10:30:40 AM by RAlexa21th

And if the kid's religious beliefs say gay parents are awesome then fuck them, I guess.