Too quick pulls, literalism in Image Pickin'

Just to make sure I have this straight, we're basically scaling back the pull-able criteria to just NSFW, Copyright issues, or causing confusion/misuse, and stuff like JAFAAC is now automatically Keep Until Better Image Suggested rather than insta-pull?

If so, it sounds good to me; I just want to make sure I'm on the same page here.

What if, although this is rare, the image is clearly not an example to enough posters on a thread. Would that be an acceptable reason?

Also, wasn't Keep Until Better Image Suggested already designed to stop pulling too many images?

edited 19th Jan '12 10:28:46 AM by DragonQuestZ

Eddie - do I understand correctly that the aim is to have every page contain an image? (except where this is really not possible due to NSFW concerns)

And just for context, ThisLoserIsYou is an example of what Eddie refers to in his top post (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Re #2: Pretty much. JAAFAC is still an issue, a serious one, but not an insta-pull. We still want to zap image macros and NSFW's, of course.

The concern I have is that IP has lately been tending toward being fast to pull and slow to find replacements. That, and some images are being pulled because, frankly, the OP and the early responders just don't 'get' it. I also feel this isn't a particularly good gauge of what the general readership will or will not 'get.'

Ninja'd — I'm not sure every page needs a picture.

edited 19th Jan '12 10:33:35 AM by FastEddie

Can we have the "when to start an IP thread" message back in the IP forum? It needs to be edited to reflect what you say here, but it should help in getting editors to be less trigger-happy on image pulling.

I moved that thread back in from FAQ.

edited 19th Jan '12 10:39:28 AM by FastEddie

I believe it's been said many times in the past that it's better for a page to not have a pic than to have a bad pic...am I correct?

Also, to DQZ's point - Keep Until Better Image Suggested should be

EDIT: I'm not seeing it...in fact, I don't see it in the FAQ list either.

EDIT #2: Found it, it was unstickied...can it be stickied in here?

edited 19th Jan '12 11:00:32 AM by Willbyr

As I understand the hierarchy from most desirable to least desirable:

1) Excellent picture: Meets all or most of these:

• It's a clear illustration of the trope.
• It's an example of the trope.
• The image quality is high.
• Any words in it are easily readable.
• There are no watermark or other copyright issues.
• It's not NSFW or JAFAAC.

• There is no reason to pull it, and the only reason to change it is if one that's even more excellent is suggested.

2) Good image: It meets all or most of these:

• It illustrates the trope well.
• Picture quality is acceptable.
• Any words in it are readable.
• There are no watermark or other copyright issues.
• It's not NSFW or JAFAAC.

• There is no reason to pull it, but it can be changed if an even better one is found.

3) OK image: It meets several of these:

• It illustrates the trope, pretty much.
• It may or may not actually be an example of the trope.
• Image quality is passable.
• It may be edging near JAFAAC or Fan Myopia, in that how it illustrates the trope may not be clear to people not familiar with the source.
• Not NSFW.

• Should not be pulled without a being replaced with a better one.

4) No image: Trope may have been decided to be "unpicturable", due to definition or subject, or due to edit warring over what the page image should be. No suitable image has been suggested or agreed on.

5) Bad image: Meets several of these:

• Doesn't illustrate the trope.
• Isn't an example of the trope.
• JAFAAC.
• Fan Myopia.
• Bad picture quality (pixellated, blurry).
• Too large.
• Too small.
• Visuals Add Nothing/Might as well be a page quote.
• Wall of Text.
• Text in the image is illegible or difficult to read.
• Borderline NSFW.

• Call for a vote on whether to pull or not. Can be pulled without being replaced with a different one.

6)Pull immediately: Meets even one of these:

• Watermarked (Please be sure you know the difference between a watermark, a bug, a signature, and a copyright notice).
• Clearly NSFW.
• Memes.
• Lolcats.
• Demotivators.
• Macros.

• Pull whether a replacement is suggested or not.

Joke images can fall into any of those categories except "no image".

Do those make sense?

{Edited to add those. I thought that list looked awfully short.}

edited 22nd Jan '13 10:10:33 AM by FastEddie

Memes, lol cats, and demotivators should be under pull immediately. Otherwise, it looks good.

@Willbyr: Using the definition of 'bad pic' in Maddy's post above, though, not "bad" as in 'I think I like my pick better.' or 'We can do better."

Exactly; Madrugada's summary is bang-on.

edited 19th Jan '12 12:27:00 PM by Willbyr

That should be in the OP for how to pick a good image, or at least a thread about what makes a good image.

I'll add it into the OP for the IP thread criteria page, if that's alright with everyone. Eddie, can you sticky that thread in here?

Yeah, I think Maddy summed it up pretty well. While we're at it, if we want to solve the issue of images getting pulled too fast, should we bump up the number of votes required for a 24-hour pull? Currently only three are needed, which probably isn't enough.

Stickied.

Definitely. Three people voting is nowhere near enough. Also, a proposal to pull should take a careful look at that definition of 'bad' above. If the image doesn't meet the qualifications for bad, a pull is not on at all, nevermind the votes.

The default state is Keep Until Better Image Suggested, is one way to think about it.

Also, I might add, we're not in a hurry. If someone suggests that an image should be pulled (aside from instant-pull criteria like NSFW or Lolcat) then it doesn't hurt to think about it for a few days. There's no reason to pull the picture within a few hours just because a handful of posters agree on that.

Amen.

It's not really "Three people say pull is good enough". It's "Three more say 'pull' than say 'Keep' or 'Keep Until Better Image Suggested' ". But that's not a huge improvement, especially on images where a lot of people have an opinion. Adding the 'thread open at least 24 hours before pull' requirement has helped, too.

edited 19th Jan '12 1:09:23 PM by Madrugada

I can appreciate the need to not be hasty about pulls, and I think bumping the number of pull votes to 5 might be helpful, but I still lean toward "whatever's the majority after 24 hours" as the best route to take. Something that we need to do when a pull motion is made is spell out in detail what is wrong with the pic, if it hasn't been done in previous posts; that will help with applying the pic criteria.

edited 19th Jan '12 1:12:48 PM by Willbyr

I don't think the amount of votes is a problem, but rather, the time elapsed after the thread start. Requiring to wait two or three days would be better than setting the minimum amount of votes to 5.

If we did that, I'd say 48 hours at most...that should give the IP regulars plenty of time to weigh in on a thread.

Yeah, three days sounds better to me, too. I think we may have a little bit of insularity growing in the "IP regulars." Giving new folks an opportunity to speak up would be good.

edited 19th Jan '12 1:15:56 PM by FastEddie

Or we could simply use basically the sane criteria we do for consensus in TRS: somewhere above 60-66% of the people who expressed an opinion.

Hm, I'm not a fan of mandating 2:1 majorities except for really important issues. I get that renaming a page is different, because it requires a ton of wicks to be changed, but ultimately swapping one picture for another is really not that big a deal. So while I see the point of requiring a supermajority for renaming, I don't see how it's useful for an image discussion.