The Gun Thread

Plus, they said in an article a few months back that the P320 was also going to see much more use by team leaders in close-quarters environments than a carbine, as apparently things have gotten so cramped only a pistol can be handled comfortably.

edited 17th Jun '18 10:19:37 AM by TheWildWestPyro

There are plenty of good subcompact carbines out there. HK was even pitching a subcompact 416, which would make a good deal of sense given we already have those in our inventories. Several of the weapons being tested in that competition are 9mm AR conversions, so I can't imagine size is a problem.

Issuing more handguns is one thing, they're backup weapons. I just can't see the logic behind buying pistol-caliber carbines these days.

It's the "urban battlefield" and the theory that "Wars Will Be Fought In Megacities"™.

edited 17th Jun '18 10:46:58 AM by TairaMai

About the only reason I can see wanting one in 9mm over a rifle caliber is the collateral damage aspect.

Although I have to agree with one of the comments on the article, it really does sound like they'd want something like the MP 9 as opposed to a UMP or a teeny AR.

The military doesn't usually use expanding/fragmenting rounds so overpenetration will be an issue anyways.

This sort of seems like a solution in search of a problem to me, I'm not sure there's a real need for these weapons.

I am not entirely sure why they are looking at an SMG other than to have a weapon with common caliber as the hand guns as a PDW.

SMG also work pretty well for stuffing under the seat of a vehicle, carbines are a bit too big for that.

though PDW work even better.

edited 18th Jun '18 2:30:42 PM by Imca

I can’t think of many situations where you’d need to hide a weapon under the seat of a vehicle. At least, not any situations conventional forces would find themselves in.

It’s something that might be expected of various special forces units, but they all already have subguns in their inventories. They seem to like the MP 7, which is surprisingly absent from this competition.

There is no reason not to give a vehicle crew guns, you might not expect to need it.... but when your tank is disabled, and you have to bail, your going to be glad you have it.

Most vehicle crews already have weapons. At least for the Abrams every crew member is issued a handgun, and there are several rifles stored inside the tank as well. The TC actually has a special holster/stand thing near his seat for a rifle.

It’s a similar story for lighter vehicles, I rifle isn’t so large that there’s no room for a few. The Bradley even had a special compact rifle designed for it, though they were phased out because crew members were using them instead of the actual weapons while dismounted.

If vehicle crews really need a smaller weapon you could easily issue a rifle like the SIG Rattler (which is already being bought by SOCOM) or one of the other subcompact carbines that wouldn’t really be any larger than the weapons competing in this contest.

That's just it. The M-4 isn't that large and good enough for PDW use. If they really wanted ammo compatibility there are 9mm AR's conversion and purpose built.

There are a couple 9mm A Rs in the current evaluation. I really question whether ammo compatibility is that big an issue though, especially considering 9mm’s less than stellar performance against modern body armor.

To be fair it is plain FMJ ammo and there is AP 9mm Pistol ammo. Though it would be rare to encounter it. It would work just fine against most generic threats but even then why not just use a compacted M-4? Even older M855 will deal with most threats short of Level III armor.

edited 18th Jun '18 4:39:37 PM by TuefelHundenIV

The Navy has replacement uppers with 10 inch barrels for the M4 that bring the overall length below 30 inches. There's also the M231 FPW that I mentioned above, though like I said they're mostly removed from circulation.

Like you said outside of MP's and special forces I am not seeing a good justification for it.

Other than featuring in the next cowadooty gaime, I don't see that many good reasons for having SMG besides Military Police or crew PD Ws either.

Unless you really wanna go for concealability but in that case I think you'd prefer a machine pistol sorta dealie like the MP9 or something instead.

Like I said earlier, definitely a solution in search of a problem. Vehicle crews are already armed, special forces already have their M P7s, nobody really needs any of these offerings.

Apparently the CIA wetwork guys dropped the MP7 a few years back.

Said the terminal ballistics of the 4.6mm were shit and the gun was shit.

Which fits in with other reports I've heard about the thing.

The SEA Ls still have theirs, as far as we know. They’re finicky but they have a few characteristics that make them popular. They have less wounding power than most pistol calibers, but they can reach out pretty far and can defeat body armor at surprising ranges. They’re also extremely compact and can be carried along with other weapons easily.

They were talking about getting rid of them like a year ago but I’m not sure if they ended up going through with it. We haven’t heard anything since, at least. I wouldn’t be surprised if they sidelined them though, since the price of ammo has skyrocketed.

Any report on what kind of weapons CIA wetwork teams use is a guess at best and a fabrication at worst. Nobody knows what those guys are up to.

There used to be a lot of pictures of DEVGRU guys too with MP7s among other things floating around various sections of the internet and then they all disappeared.

People who seem suspiciously in the know claimed they found it's performance against unarmored targets to be unacceptable for their needs and they ditched them.

Sure enough haven't seen a new picture of one in the wild since like 2012 or so?

They seem to be in a lot of the photos tied to Neptune Spear and one of the SEA Ls who went off to write the unofficial true story claimed to have taken one into the compound.

That I had heard as well but that was still in 2011.

Which man is a lot long ago that I remember it being.

They were buying ammo for them as of 2016, so I assume at least a few are still in use. Like with everything HK they’re a little too overengineered for their own good.

These days it’s all about .300 Blackout. That seems to be the new hotness over at SOCOM.

Random rambling.

I so want to fire shotguns, both double barreled and pump action. There are few legal fire ranges around my place, but they mostly just deal with pistols.