Frozen (Disney film)

Because is that were her power are calling her.

You know, just once I would like to see someone resist the call or say "screw destiny".

Then destiny would play a hand, by force.

I mean nothing would happen and arandelle would be haunted and abandoned.

Like I said, it seen the plot structure is set more for elsa and anna, is and aventure type of thing but with three comedy chararters, the result is that aside from elsa and anna everyone is expendable.

According to Jennifer Lee, the source of her magic originally was a 1000-year alignment between Saturn and other distant planets. https://johnaugust.com/2014/scriptnotes-ep-128-frozen-with-jennifer-lee-transcript

"But to move onto Elsa, it was an exhausting process coming to the simplicity of her powers. At times we had a narration by a troll, who used to have a Brooklyn accent for no reason other than I miss Brooklyn. You know, no reason. But, we had this whole explanation like when Saturn is in this alignment with such-and-such on the thousandth year a child will be born and blah, blah, blah.

And then —

John: Ultimately you almost throw it away with one line. So, the line is just like, “Was she born with the powers or was she cursed?. And it’s born with it and that’s the last piece of it.

Jennifer: And that’s it. But I think part of what it was is if anything about us felt like it was like, “Oh, god, like okay, we have to say this,” then we didn’t want to say it. And then also we found the more you explained the more questions you had about magic and the rules."

I just saw the film again, this time with my family.

God, Anna's arc is so much better than Elsa's. Having seen it again, I really really like Anna's arc. At least in theory. This idea that she's desperately trying to hold onto the past and can't fully accept the idea that things inevitably change, and in the face of everything she once held as pillars of certainty in her life fading away into darkness one by one, she keeps going by virtue of needing to do the next right thing. It's simple but it's discernable, and her scene where she climbs out of the cave is one of my favourites in the movie.

The thing that bothers me most, moreso than even the poorly explained spirits, is just how toothless Elsa's death is in this. It's not unexplained. The process of going too deep is foreshadowed several times, but from a narrative perspective, she freezes at a completely arbitrary point. They never establish why this specific flashback is deeper than any other. We see points in history from around that same time in the upper levels of the river.

If the revelation about their grandfather is that deep because it's a secret, then that means her freezing was inevitable. She wasn't getting out of that even if she'd brought Anna along with her. In fact, if Anna was there then she'd be trapped in the river as well, unable to get back to the mainland to destroy the dam. So Elsa shunning Anna is somewhat rewarded by the story.

I thought that moment would've been more powerful if she sank too deeply because she intentionally sought out something selfishly. Like trying to find out how her parents died or if they discovered anything. Something that Anna could've discouraged her from doing had she been there. Something that pays off any of Elsa's flaws, like her guilt complex over her parents.

As it stands, Elsa died because the plot said so. She H Ad to go that deep because the information she needed was 100% necessary.

I mean, as pointed out back on page 743, the idea that both Elsa and Anna are the "fifth spirit" feels very contrived. Not to mention, the other spirits are earth, air, water, and fire. Where does ice fit in when it's another form of water?

I agree that the scene in Ahtohallan felt rushed. Elsa sings "Show yourself", understands... something, discovers the truth about the dam, then freezes so fast we barely have time to understand what is going on. And it is not quite clear either why she thaws at the end (I tried to Fan Wank how Anna destroying the dam was an act of true love, but even I am not convinced).

(x4) We've known about the moon thing for years. However, not many fans cared about that explanation.

It seems very apparent now that Disney just wanted to imitate Avatar: The Last Airbender — without understanding what made that show so good in the first place.

Songs are no substitute for actual story.

Disney needs to (re)learn this.

Edited by BrightLight on Feb 28th 2020 at 1:32:13 AM

And again, because what you said can't be emphasized any more, Elsa's character arc needs to be conveyed through spoken words, not just through songs.

I think she froze in part because that, she learn the secret and the shame and kinda cursed her.

Also, the spirit are from alquimical mythology, so ice isnt a element, only you consider Olaf one.

When you stop to think about it, Elsa doesn't even make her own choices. She abdicates because "the spirits decided Arendelle should stand with (Anna)" and decides to stay in the woods (despite being a neat freak) just because a woman she shared a 52 second scene with tells her to. Taking away a single, introverted woman's ability to think for herself and make her own choices, as well as sticking her in the woods with strangers, while the engaged and extroverted sister gets everything else- the job, the man, the sidekicks, the castle and kingdom, etc.- is not really progressive.

I've said it before, but the biggest issue for me, is how unfocused and meandering the story is. The characters don't even get an actual goal until at least half way through the movie, and spend most of it just wandering around aimlessly.

I think that all goes back to the lack of a good Inciting Incident. An inciting incident is the event that kicks the plot off, often in the form of a sudden change in the status quo or revelation about themselves or others, and should generally reflect the themes of the work. The inciting incident here is kinda weak. The audience has not been given any previous indications that Elsa is unhappy as queen of Arendelle, and the fact that she somehow "accidentally" awoke the spirits doesn't make a ton of sense. She's had these powers from birth, so why is she only hearing this mysterious voice now? It just doesn't really hold up.

It also just doesn't have any real significant emotional impact or connection to the characters. A better inciting incident for the movie we got, would be Elsa discovering that her parents were trying find the source of her powers when they died at the beginning of the movie, instead of well into the second act. Maybe it could be some sort of hidden note and map?

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:38:07 PM

I think is meanding because while is and aventure is also a mystery behind it: they have to know what happen, what this spirit are, what is parent did,etc.

Aventure by their own very nature are clear in there goal, let go to find one piece!, to defeat the fire lord!, to defeat Te-ka! they are mistery and subversion and all that stuff but aventures in theory give you a clear point B to go event if the trayect is not clear.

Here isnt, there is a incident that is tie to a mystery that is tie to others, a mystery in fact is often slow as you on cover stuff so i think it come the meandring part: is not until elsa and anna find out there parent have something to do with all was going on is that finally the plot get steam.

Edited by unknowing on Feb 27th 2020 at 2:17:56 PM

Well, the inciting incident made some sense for me, but the problem is that it gets dropped afterwards. Elsa decides to answer the voice for the first time (during a song, which is normally not 100% integrated into the story, but we covered that already), and this wakes up the spirits who come attacking Arendelle. Then the Trolls come to explain that this means they have to journey up north to meet the spirits and calm them down or something.

This was probably not the better way to start this story, but I do think it could have worked... if the goal had been kept in view during the rest of the story, and if there had been some coherence to the the spirits' actions. Elsa manages to tame two of them out of four without too much trouble, but Arendelle stays threatened by fire and wind in the meantime. And what drives me mad is that we get no real explanation of what the bloody voice was - and for something important enough to have kickstarted the movie's plot I feel we would have needed more than a song.

Frozen 1 let little questions about the main plot unanswered. There were some side questions that were used as Fanfic Fuel (like how Hans knew nobody could get anywhere with Elsa and what it meant, what Elsa was doing all alone in her ice castle, the final fate of Hans, etc) but everything in the main plot was clearly set up from the start and got clear cut answers. But here in Frozen 2, too much points essential to the plot are only briefly explained through a song or vaguely alluded to, leaving the viewers to connect the dots.

All in all, I think I would not have reacted like that if the story had not ended up with the sisters separated. Because that was an important enough change to the status quo to deserve an explanation - while the movie offers basically none that holds water and remains extremely vague to Elsa's reasons. This left me ending the movie on a sour taste, and probably negatively coloured my reaction to it.

One scene at the beginning, or even a song if they wanted, showing that Elsa felt just as imprisoned into her role as a perfect queen as she had been in her room, or that she was staying near Anna out of some kind of guilt complex, would have been enough. Instead we get a ling singing out of the blue in "Into the unknown" where Elsa says that she feels she's not where she's meant to be, and that's all.

So, I have read somewhere that there is some Applicability here, and that Elsa's situation at the beginning could be compared to that of a LGBTQ+ person living with their understanding and loving cisgender straight family, but I don't think you should build a story out of a subtext anyway.

All said and done, the movie performed well, and was not panned by critics or audiences, and I have seen people praising the story and the fact that Elsa got to choose her own destiny and was not forced to keep interacting with people when she did not want to, so possibly I am simply missing something or had been expecting something else out of that movie. In any case, I hope the success of the movie means there will be more Frozen material latter to allow me to get over the sour taste the ending left me with.

Edited by C105 on Feb 28th 2020 at 10:34:49 AM

I still think either the voice Elsa was hearing should've been evil (or at least not a good thing) or she should've been more resistant to its call.

In the film she almost instantly thinks the voice is a good thing, follows it, and gets what she wants.

interestingly, the second trailer actually has some hints that something like that may have been a dropped plot line

It’s not said anywhere in the finished film, and almost seems to be referencing a different arc for Elsa entirely.

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:25:19 PM

Somehow I think that this alternative arc for Elsa would've been a little more compelling as a character. Clearly it was changed very late since that footage was in the September trailer.

She calls it a siren, and in myths sirens tend not to be benevolent creatures.

The more we look into it, the more I'm convinced that the final cut we got was the result of throwing a bunch of random elements from the different storylines they came up with together, rather than any specific vision on the part of the creators. It would explain a lot of the various elements feel disjointed and/or seem to be referencing plot points from older versions of the script.

Like compare with Spider-Verse. While both movies went through drastic, late in the game changes and rewrites, I think the reason Spider-Verse works while Frozen 2 struggles a bit, is that with Spider-Verse, the creators had a specific vision of what they wanted to do, and built the movie around that.

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:28:23 PM

Not to mention, Disney had only made a grand total of four theatrical sequels beforehand.

(Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Rescuers 2, Peter Pan 2, Jungle Book 2 and Wreck It Ralph 2.

And out of those four previous sequels, only Rescuers 2 is a good movie (and arguably an Even Better Sequel).

In retrospect, Disney is way out of their depth here.

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 6th 2020 at 11:12:53 AM

It's still kinda baffling even now that the writers couldn’t think of anything better for the plot than to continue to hurt Anna’s heart and make Elsa be the one that does it. First, she doesn’t tell Anna about the voice, even though they promised not to shut each other out. Then she breaks her promise to do the journey together and sends her in an ice boat, then she just abandons her to play hippie in the woods or something. This definitely isn't consistent with the Elsa we get in Frozen and the two shorts.

Yeah, it occurred to me as well that Elsa basically does the exact same things she did in the first film (hide the truth from Anna, push her away, and flee her kingdom to go hiding into some lonely ice fortress) only this time the narrative seems to consider it the correct thing to do.

And talking about Ralph 2... at least that film had made Vanellope's discomfort with her situation clear from the start, so her wanting to leave her own game did not come out of nowhere.

In RBTI's case, I feel like there could've been a compromise ending between the two extremes, like "Vanellope spends her days racing in Sugar Rush while the arcade is open, and goes to Slaughter Race while the arcade is closed."

And in Frozen II, it definitely feels like the writers might just not know how to write Elsa to show growth when compared to what she was at the end of the first movie and in the animated shorts.

I mean, why does Elsa have to stay in the forest? What’s her role? Protect the forest? So if the forest will never be in danger, will she just ride the Nokk to the horizon and play with Gale and Bruni for 80 years straight until she dies?

And it's not like she has to stay there to actually take care of the forest, like trees, animals, etc. She was clearly not oppressed by life in the castle, so it is not like she felt she needed to be free. And the other spirits seemed to be perfectly fine without her. So is she there because the spirits fight with each others without a fifth spirit acting like a mom to look after them? Also, the Northuldra are the protectors of the forest themselves. And what the heck is the fifth spirit? Is it just a token, like an ambassador that you show off?

I prefer Elsa as a queen in Arendelle, because her personality is fantastic for the role and she and Anna complement each other. What Elsa is missing, Anna has it and vice-versa. Anna is fit for the people skills, Elsa is fit for the actual behind the scenes stuff. Anna is not fit to stay confined all day to an office. She would be more suited to the role of an ambassador or anything besides “I gotta be queen cause my sister doesn’t want to anymore for...reasons.” The writers wanted Anna to be queen, and that’s okay, but they should've made it happen naturally, not forced. Anna is not a queen because she wanted to, or cause she earns it but because they needed someone to take the place of Elsa. Who left to do...something in the forest.

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:49:07 PM

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 29th 2020 at 1:46:46 PM