Ongoing European Debt Crisis

@USAF I don't care whose responsibility it is, redirecting foreign aid will cause the deaths of tens of thousands of people in violent conflict while slowing down economic growth (hard to develop infrastructure and industry when you're at war and buying all your weapons abroad). I'm not going to support that in order to save the british from a worse recession. War<economic hardship (I know economic problems lead to war, but does that apply to the modern UK?)

edited 10th Nov '11 10:08:48 AM by Oscredwin

Sex, Drugs, and Rationality

The foreign aid makes them worse-off in the long run. All we're doing is supporting the dictatorships and military tinpot dictatorships down there and stifling their own economic growth with cheap Western garbage.

I am now known as Flyboy.

While I can't help but applaud you USAF for the thought, it would be economically better to buy out Italy's debt since that economy is currently imploding, and Britain's is merely not doing great.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

Except the Euro will still be fucked either way because of Greece and Spain and all that.

Britain isn't in the Euro. That's the key difference. They can jump the gap, so to speak, and escape the inevitable FUBAR situation like Germany and (maybe) France probably will...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Sex, Drugs, and Rationality

Let Brazil or India buy their debt.

Seriously. If those countries want to become the next superpowers, and they can afford it, this is their chance to own the Eurozone. Might be that they can't pony up the cash, but if they could?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

India certainly doesn't have that kind of money. That said, it may be trying to find a way through a back door in their defense industry since if they choose the Typhoon, India becomes a partner of Eurofighter and if they buy the Rafale, it saves Dassault from taking a loss.

Back to topic though, how long until Ireland completely recovers?

You don't have to buy ALL the debt. You just need to buy a few hundred billion, which is very much a pittance. I'm not sure if USA wants to do that (USA is living on borrowed cash as is). However, in the overall scheme of things, it's okay. I would say that you should attach a "free trade" deal to go along with the debt resolution. You give them hundreds of billion in debt relief, you get free trade access to UK markets.

edited 10th Nov '11 11:50:44 AM by breadloaf

So, hypothetically, about a fourth ($400 USD billion) of the debt, along with some stupid trade agreement I don't really like the prospect of but won't argue with if it helps get it down the throats of short-term thinking voters?

Bleh... if it helps, then I guess I'd be able to live with that. Would Britain want the help, though, or would it make the 51st State conspiracy theorists flare up again?

I am now known as Flyboy.

I forget. Why should the US borrow money so the UK will have to borrow less money? Is our debt so far away from any sort of crisis point?

edited 10th Nov '11 11:56:49 AM by Oscredwin

Sex, Drugs, and Rationality

I'm not that intimately familiar with British politics to know if they would like free-trade with US or not. I just know they don't want to go on foreign adventures with the USA in the future. And actually, I think even 200-300 billion USD is good enough for debt relief. They just need to be brought back in line with normal operating parameters, and then they can resolve the rest of the debt on their own. If it's not free-trade, then get some other sort of trade deal to go with it because I think it key that money not just be chucked around when you aren't the same country.

Though I'm not sure how it works when the US is basically borrowing Chinese money to bail out the UK economy. That'll be a very odd chain of financial links.

As for Eurozone breakup, it seems unnecessary. The primary issue is that the EU bank (I forget the acronym) doesn't have an EU wide regulator and auditor. Being in the Euro should require your central bank to be subject to the same rules. It's crazy to expect that all members will somehow cooperate magically like game theory doesn't exist. Some countries want higher inflation, some want lower, nobody is going to be spending the same and so how can you trade bonds at different rates for the same damn currency? Makes zero sense.

EDIT:

@ Oscredwin

It's my belief that the US economy, despite all its flaws, has a lot of money you can tap into if you felt like it. The issue is that raising taxes is anathema to the rich and the corporate elite, so politically the USA has trouble trying to get any of the money in its vast GDP.

edited 10th Nov '11 11:58:33 AM by breadloaf

Merkel: Aim is credibility for whole eurozone

So yeah, it seems Merkel is going to latch her survival to the survival of the Eurozone.

Dutch Lesbian

Today's round-up, so far from The BBC:

Italy:

• Italy crisis: Senate adopts austerity law
  • Italy: Nearer the precipice

Greece:

• Greece to swear in unity cabinet and new PM
  • Q&A: Greece's 'technocratic' government ...and that's Greece.

• EU's inner 'politburo' flexes its muscles
• Euro crisis leaves US howling into the wind — Yep, the US Wades in...
• S&P accidentally announces downgrade of French debt ...and S&P Makes a Mistake.

• John Major: Be realistic about UK-US relationship — John Major gives his view of the "Special Relationship" — basically, it is over.

Keep Rolling On

The problem, again, is that while the EU has a common monetary policy, we have no common fiscal policy. We do have an external auditor (the European Court of Auditors), but their focus is on EU institutions and budgets. Part of an EU reform package would need to include the extension of auditing powers to this institution, to ensure something like Greece never happens again. Indeed, comments made by EU core member states have an idea like this in mind...

edited 11th Nov '11 5:12:32 AM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."

Spain's economy records zero growth

The Spanish Government faces a 22% unemployment so its economy needs to be growing by more than 0% otherwise its going to be spanked by the bond markets.

Edit: Eurozone crisis: Clock is ticking, says Clegg

edited 11th Nov '11 5:16:05 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian

• 1) Lulz at S&P stupidity.
• 2) What are the chances that Greece will raise upper-level taxes in addition to its austerity garbage?
• 3) I sort of get why the people of Greece are angry—after all, their government is shafting them in favor of the rich, as I understand it—but they did let it get that bad in the first place, no?
• 4) I think the EU will either come out of this as a federal system vaguely similar to the US (simply in terms of how the individual states relate to the larger [supra]national government), or it simply won't come out of this at all.
• 5) The picture of Obama, Merkel, and Sarkozy all together in the one article is amusing. Also, if the European collapse kills Obama's reelection chances and puts one of the crazies in the White House, we're all fucked beyond belief.

I am now known as Flyboy.

George Osborne: Disorderly euro exits would damage UK

Raising them and collecting them are 2 different things

Yes but the Greek problems date back to the CIA-backed Colonels coup apparently

Dutch Lesbian

True. Do they have an anti-tax evasion plan yet?

Ah, yay, more garbage from the US's Cold War history!

...

Not. Why is it that every time we find a problem it seems to be traceable back to the US these days?

~sigh~

I am now known as Flyboy.

They tried to issue tax forms via utility bills but the company refused to do it

Dutch Lesbian

Because people use that to deflect things from their original European roots. Greece didn't begin because of US actions.

What the fuck does "the company refused to do it" mean? How the fuck does that even happen?

Wow. Greece really is fucked, if their companies can openly and without challenge tell the government to fuck off...

I am now known as Flyboy.

IIRC, they threatened to walk out

Most Greeks IIRC hate their government now

Dutch Lesbian

To walk out of the country? Well good riddance then, the bastards.

What do they expect to happen? Things are fucked up, and if they aren't going to back a government to fix it they'll be a Third World nation attached to Europe, which is supposed to be the utopia of the world.

I am now known as Flyboy.

No, they were going to call a strike.

Greece has been crippled by the austerity measures which has made alot of people angry and has increased suicide rates in the country.

Dutch Lesbian

Call a strike because the government is actually collecting taxes? Well, fuck them too.

Really now, the Greeks need to wake up and smell the common sense, or they'll be thoroughly fucked.

I am now known as Flyboy.