So apparently this Squirrel Girl is really strong...

That's not an Ass Pull, it's intentionally leaving it up to the audience's interpretation.

If that's the case, then I'm interpreting them as Ass Pulls.

But seriously, I don't have a problem *with Squirrel Girl herself* Heck, she exists in the same universe as Howard The Duck! Every character has his or her place. She can be funny, and in fact I welcome her for that. She can even kick ass a few times, that's great. But don't tell me she can beat everybody, because not only it doesn't make sense, it diminishes the other heroes' victories. "Oh that guy whom the Fantastic Four had so much agonizing trouble to defeat, so many times? I beat him with squirrels! The pansies!" (not an actual quote, but you see my point.)

edited 8th Oct '11 9:52:57 AM by Sijo

See, I don't agree because that's not what comics have been about in the past.

I've read comics in which Luke Cage has beaten up Doom (in his own country, no less), Ka-Zar has outwitted Thanos, Spider-man has survived a run-in with cosmic beings, Captain America has outlasted every other hero pitted against a mad god, and many more.

I get it: you don't want a character to go through Badass Decay or Villain Decay. That's fine. But one embarrassing loss doesn't have to hurt them. It's when they constantly start jobbing to newer or weaker characters to prove how "badass" they are that the decay starts.

I don't mind if a master villain is defeated by a lesser hero- heck, I welcome it, it can be a real Crowning Moment when they it happens- provided they're written well. For example, the time Green Arrow and The Atom actually KILLED Darkseid (in an alternate future) in Justice League was awesome- but then again, it was written by Grant Morrison. The circumstances that allowed that to happen were specific and not likely to be repeated every time Darkseid reappears.

So if say, SG got her hands on the Cosmic Cube and used it to scare Galactus away, I'd have no problem with it. But when they insist on having her win either in nonsensical ways, or completely off panel, it annoys me. Once might be funny, but over and over and over? Nah.

Oh and the really sad part? SG is a great character in and of herself, I think in fact she could carry her own series- if they just knocked it off with the She's Invincible!! meme already.

edited 8th Oct '11 10:50:39 PM by Sijo

But that's kind of the entire point. She's not a normal character, and when you try to treat her like one, she loses her single most enduring trait.

Maybe cut down on Squirrel Girl so that the meme doesn't become oversaturated? Okay, fine.

Do away with the meme so that she can become a "legit" character? No. That's completely missing the point.

It's like when people started inventing ways to "stop" the unstoppable Juggernaut just so that he could be a more rounded character. He hasn't recovered from that decision yet.

edited 9th Oct '11 12:17:52 AM by KingZeal

The Juggernaut was never truly unstoppable; he was just too powerful for most heroes to stop. But in the Marvel Universe, there's simply too many levels of power, and Jug's isn't even the highest.

(Personally I was more annoyed when they insisted on making him a 'likable' character, but whatever.)

Anyway I think I see where you are coming from, but I don't value characters for their memes, but their importance to the stories. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I didn't mean that there was no way to "stop" (i.e., "defeat") the Juggernaut. But his power level was high enough that doing so took a lot of effort. In later stories, his power was seriously diminished to the point that he lost most of his credibility.

Spite is never a good reason for anything. It's just pettiness.

From what I've heard, that doctor doom comic was a silly throwback to the silver age, and since it was mostly forgotten about, it was one of Doom's few embarrassing defeats that was never retconned into being a doombot. Then people found out about it and the rest is history.

Also she apparently quit the Great Lakes Avengers because she was holding them back.

So you should feel ashamed.

Your value system is as worthless as mine, then.

But at least I tend to avoid pettily wanting things because 'of spite'.

Oh for Gods' sakes, let's just say that the reason people want to see Squirrel Girl in "serious" stories is because Maturity Is Serious Business.

To put it in perspective, let's take the Harlem Globetrotters as an example. People don't think they're "good" players because they play to entertain rather than to compete, unlike the NBA. Even thought that's not what they're about. People want to see them validated in a more "academic" context because their accomplishments don't seem as justified otherwise.

The same concept applies to "Stop Having Fun" Guys in every competitive videogame ever. "Who cares if you can do these fancy combos and speed runs? I'll give you respect only if you place top 10 in a major tourney."

So everybody thinks Doctor Doom is "a joke" now?

Embarrassing losses aside, he's still considered one of the most iconic and dangerous villains in comics.

If you're a Marvel or DC supervillain you are going to accrue a lot of humiliating defeats eventually. That's just part of how their form of storytelling works.

There was an issue of Deadpool where Squirrel Girl did pretty much what you want, while remaining over-the-top silly.

Squirrel Girl is so powerful because she wins off panel most of the time...and shes really smart.

ex: Squirrel Girl VS the thing being controlled by Doc Doom taking place as the same time as Spider Man VS Doc Doom. We look away to see what Spidy is up to and when we come back Squirrel Girl has curb stomped Benny with an army of squirrels.

Oh, my mistake.

(Beat)

Wait, what's wrong with that? The Joker does the same thing. As does The Creeper. As does Mr. Mxyzptlk. Some characters are meant to revolve around humor and sometimes, the best way to point that out is to offer them a Foil.

The Creeper punching out some thugs with little effort? Amusing.

The Creeper punching out Batman with an Offhand Backhand? Fucking hilarious.

Those are not even remotely the same cases. Joker and Creeper are actually competent characters (though I think neither one should be a real match to Batman) and Myx is an actual Reality Warper. Unless SG is revealed as one as well (or being secretly helped by one) her victories over far superior characters are not valid.

...You know, I'm starting to wonder if SG isn't so much a running gag anymore as a character Marvel doesn't know what to do with anymore. They can't have her continue to overshadow everyone else, but cutting her down to size could have a bad reaction from the audience.

I'd retire her for a few years and then bring her back after the obsession with her had passed, as a more nuanced character. Still funny, but not unbeatable (she doesn't need it.)

edited 21st Oct '11 6:58:27 PM by Sijo

That's a writing issue, not a character issue, especially since competence is "YMMV". (For example, why would Batman even walk callously behind him as to receive an Offhand Backhand? You could just as easily decry that as bullshit because it's "something Batman would never do".

Anyway. . . The way I see it, the entire point to Squirrel Girl is that she's the Marvel personification of audience fulfillment. The reason I defend the character is because her entire point is to be a throwback to the Omnipresent/Omnipotent Trope, The Good Guy Wins. If you want to have her start winning "competently", then again, it becomes a writing issue. On the other hand, if you want to start handing her losses and ramping up the angst, then you've pretty much destroyed the entire point to the character.