The History of Christians and Jews

Well, it's fine to adopt Jewish cultures, but it's not necessary for Gentiles to become Jews.

Also, I like donuts. They're delicious. Points if you guess where that line's from. Bagels I find a bit boring in taste.

I wonder that too, actually. How did he become a Roman citizen again?

Now using Trivialis handle.

Don't actually know.

Know that he had a CMOA when a bunch of Roman guards tried to take him down and he went "I'm a Roman Citizen! Can't touch this", and all the guards went, "Oh Crap".

Nah, being South Floridian, (third largest Jewish population in the world, after the Big Applesauce and Isreal), I know my Jewish food, and I love my bagels.

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:03:36 PM by Jimmmyman10

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

Christians used to hate on Jews for being "Christ-killers", as well as their unwillingness to convert and numerous blood libels.

Pagans didn't hate Jews, but often saw them as the "others" (due to their unwillingness to assimilate) of the numerous empires they were under since the Babylonians.

Combine all this with historic Judaism, which thought that assimilation into these cultures was a really, really bad thing, you're just asking for conflict to arise.

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:17:38 PM by SilentColossus

I like my pork

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:23:11 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

IMO, Constantine was the shining example of the Knight Templar: Thinks he is doing something good, ends up ruining a heck of a lot of stuff.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

Did Constantine adopt Christianity out of real spiritual enlightenment, or did he adopt it because he realized that Christianity was "winning"?

I'd imagine both. His mother was apparently a Christian, so that may have had some influence on his decision, as well.

Really no way to know. We know the official story he gave the press: (shortened) "I was about to go into battle, when I saw this big cross, and I was like 'woah, trippy'. And then this big ass voice said 'Dude, you put this epic symbol of righteousness and forgiveness and peace on your sheilds, and you will be able to slaughter your enemies' So I did, and we won, and I was like 'woah, trippy.' So then I made Catholicism."

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:30:20 PM by Jimmmyman10

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

I always wonder about the Greedy Jew stereotype because that stupid stereotype was made by Christians themselves because being a banker was the one of the few professions they could hold.Shylock is a character example of the steroetype of the Jewish banker but it shows him in a grayer light and gives a reason for why he is a villian and it pointed out it was racism against him that fueled his anger

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:38:23 PM by joyflower

Actually, Jewish people are, as far as I can tell from history, the ones who end up with the money in any given society. And the diplomas. And the awards. And everything else. Why? Possibly because the traditions God gave them aren't just there for no reason, but are there because they can really help you in life.

Or maybe they are just lucky. Go figure.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

Only relatively recently. IIRC, Jews lived in a really shitty ghetto in Rome and were stereotyped as being poor.

Heck, Jewish People Just Seem To Have That Special Something and there's a lot of them in media,business,and government.I think if you look throught the history of America it has some kinda of connection to the Jewish people mainly because it was not as gungho about being racists to them as Europe was. I know some people like in the South and in parts of New England were racists to Jews but here in the states no big mass exterminations of Jews has ever taken place.

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:45:43 PM by joyflower

True.

Everyone in this thread should go watch Fiddler On The Roof. It is very good. I learned a lot from it.

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:45:41 PM by Jimmmyman10

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

I sure they are plenty of Jews who are doped up, dropped out or where it's at. Jewish mothers just aren't as tellingly proud of it.

hashtagsarestupid

> Actually, Jewish people are, as far as I can tell from history, the ones who end up with the money in any given society. And the diplomas. And the awards.

Its because most Christian and Muslim nation banned them from owning or working on land. so they cannot become farmer and have to concentrate on become merchant, banker, and craftsman and live in town / city.

Living in the city/town help them later after Industrial Revolution, townfolk have more appreciation of value of education. They already have a culture of education, so they become successful on educational field.

Jewish is not only one on this. Armenian on Middle East and Chinese Diaspora on South East Asia also become successful market minority.

Ohh, Thanks! I didn't realize that!

(That wasn't sarcasm by the way, I actually didn't realize that, and I am actually thankful that you pointed that out.)

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

"Pagans" were a lot of different people with wildly different attitudes towards Jews. The Roman Empire was mistrustful, and did not really like their whole "refusing to offer sacrifices to the Emperor's Numen" thing, but for the most part tolerated them as a part of their "let conquered populations keep their ancestral religions, as long as they do not cause trouble" policy. Not that this always held, of course — see the Alexandria pogroms, for example.

But a few centuries earlier, for example, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (or, as some called him, Epimanes "The crazy one") led a vigorous and most definitely persecutory Hellenization campaign against Jewish traditions...

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

The cross in the sky may have actually been a meteor. We don't know though. Battle of the Milvian Bridge was kind of weird.

His conversion may have also been due to the fact that a ton of his soldiers were converting.

edited 23rd Sep '11 5:18:18 AM by Pentadragon

As I said, no way to know.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

John was decidedly anti-jewish many times. And Paul was a proselyte neurotic who never could forgive himself for abandoning his old faith. And describing things this way means being very, VERY polite at the cost of being truthful. If you read this stuff without the christian glasses firmly in place, it means instant deconversion.

ETA: The anti-jewish stance of the gospels as well as Paul is recognized by many modern theologians as well as judaists.

edited 23rd Sep '11 8:14:52 AM by vijeno

I was talkin' more about culture than politics. How citizens often viewed Judaism, not the politicians.

Well, to begin with, neither Paul nor the Gospels were anti-Jewish, if by "Jewish" you mean the ethnicity — that much is obvious, as much of the early group of Christians consisted of Jewish converts.

If you mean that their were, to some level, opposed to Judaism... well, they clearly believed (as most Christian denominations do nowadays) that Christianity superseded Judaism, and that it would be a very nice thing if the Jews, along with everyone else of course, converted to Christianity; and, since the in the early times of Christianity there was a marked, and well-documented, contrast between this newfangled, rather bizarre sect and the Temple establishment, it comes to no surprise that the New Testament bears quite a lot of evidence of this conflict. Furthermore, since, again, Christianity drew its initial group of converts from Judaism, it is entirely unsurprising that its beginning were marked by a certain degree of polemic fervor between it and the older religion.

Really, what else were you expecting? And why should this even have any bearing on someone's possible "deconversion"?

edited 23rd Sep '11 10:14:58 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Two points on Constantine: he never claimed to have seen the cross before the Battle of Milvian Bridge. He saw the letters CHI and RHO superimposed. Two, he didn't start Roman Catholicism, which didn't split with Eastern Orthodoxy until 1054. All churches professing the Nicene Creed are indebted to him.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

x4 What? Paul ordered murder of Christians in the past. Why would he regret leaving that??

Choosing the New Covenant does not make you anti-Jewish. It's pouring new wine in new wineskin, believing that the Jewish beliefs were actually a bedrock for future promise that has now come. Of course, the Jews may take it as being anti-Jewish.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:17:08 AM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.

First of all, I don't like Constantine. He turned Christianity from a religion into a political institution. This bothers me. A lot. I could go into detail, but that would be derailing.

However, Paul and John were very pro-Jewish; I think our difference is the definition of "pro-Jewish". When I say they were for the Jews, I don't mean that they were tolerant of the Jewish beliefs, refusing to push their beliefs onto the Jews. I mean that they respected and loved the Jews, and because of this, they tried to convert them. However, they never persecuted them, never were cruel to the Jewish religion, and always acted out of love.

Amen!

edited 23rd Sep '11 12:08:32 PM by Jimmmyman10

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.