overhaul ? New Crowner (9/13/11): Lolicon

I don't really think that that stuff is very important, honestly. And I said "Useful Notes", not "Analysis".

You're saying Useful Notes, Arha says Analysis, the crowner says Useful Notes, the Sandbox links Analysis. I think Useful Notes would be better. And I do think "that stuff" (if by that you mean non-trope pages) is useful.

[edit]

And I don't see the point in calling it Lolicon Industry. Professionally-published lolicon manga / anime / games / whatever is not separate from the general manga-etc industry generally (and a lot of lolicon is fan-made doujin-stuff, where "industry" is a total misnomer). It's a genre or category of material.

edited 22nd Sep '11 6:42:44 PM by lebrel

Does it matter whether you call it useful notes or analysis? Either way, it's going to be a locked page that no one ever links to.

Well, yes. They are two different types of pages.

We almost certainly do not want an Analysis page for Lolicon.

How about adding a postnominative qualifier to "Lolicon" to clarify that it's a character type, leaving plain old Lolicon to refer to the more general concepts of "Lolita Complex", Lolicon industry, et al., possibly as a Useful Notes page.

The fact that Loli is a redirect instead of its own page might be part of the problem, but splitting it off got voted down.

And I can't think of a good qualifier. Lolicon Character? Lolicon Man? Ugh. Horrible.

Actually, just The Lolicon might work.

Whatever, put it in Useful Notes then. It only says Analysis on the crowner because... actually, I don't know why I put it there like that. It's not like I really care.

Personally, I hate titles that start with The. And I see no problem with Lolicon. 13 out of 23 wicks checked reference a character type of one sort or the other with 7 of the remaining 10 simply unclear. There's little point in emphasizing its a character trope when it's already treated as one.

Oh, and loli should definitely not be a redirect. That's not helping. Whether or not loli should get its own page is something to be settled elsewhere. Personally, I have a feeling Fast Eddie is going to say no to that one.

Edit: No one has stepped up to take Evil Pedophile to ykttw. If no one has done it by tomorrow I will. I'd do it now but I'm pretty tired. We'll also need to do some wick cleaning. Anything about whether Loli should be its own page or whether to merge with Shotacon can wait, I suppose. The edit history for Lolicon should presumably still have the markup for the thingy that people wanted to put into Useful Notes. Stuff didn't make it into the analysis tab anyway.

edited 22nd Sep '11 11:09:09 PM by Arha

The Sandbox copy has replaced the old copy on the Lolicon page. It will remain locked to general editing, however, because no matter how carefully and neutrally it's phrased now, the subject is an apparently irresistible bait for flaming and justifying. Use the "Make an edit to a locked page" thread to ask for any change that you feel should be made.

edited 22nd Sep '11 11:11:29 PM by Madrugada

OK, but that doesn't solve the issue of what to keep out of the old info and where to put it. I suppose we could get rid of it all and simply have the page mention that there is a genre of stuff called lolicon with a link to the Wikipedia article if they want more information.

So now, what about the 3000+ links to the page? Do we need to clear them off except for the ones that refer specifically to characters with lolita complexes?

I've asked for the old information to be put into Lolicon, but it doesn't seem to have happened. It's creating a red link in the article, too, but for the analysis tab instead of useful notes. At this point you should probably just go into the edit history, take what was there and put it into the analysis tab so at least the red link goes away.

And those 1300 wicks are going to take a lot of cleaning. We should get to work on that. Anything to do with merging or shotacon can be taken care of later.

edited 23rd Sep '11 10:43:44 AM by Arha

Has the Evil Pedophile trope been launched yet? There's no point in cleaning the Lolicon wicks if we don't have somewhere to put the misuse. Also, we need to remember to switch it to Loli when its talking about the child.

Discar: I've put Loli on the cutlist because it's only a redirect for Lolicon. And it definitely shouldn't be.

Anyway, I just went and cleaned out all the ptitle and alt title wicks. And I can tell you pretty much all the misuse is referring to little girls or rarely lolicon themes. No misuse for Evil Pedophile in a hundred wicks checked. I'll go start an Evil Pedophile ykttw now.

Ykttw here.

edited 23rd Sep '11 12:06:27 PM by Arha

So we're going for "only references to people with Lolita Complexes, when this is treated lightly", right? What about references to lolicon-genre material; just unlink them?

I really think we need a Loli supertrope, but it got voted down, so I guess the only option is to turn it into a fanspeak definition page. Is there any argument that we should do that?

Just so I understand, Loli is the object of the lust (is there a Spear Counterpart?); Lolicon/Shotacon is the person lusting after them, Played for Laughs; and Evil Pedophile is the person lusting after them, Played for Drama?

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:06:13 PM by Fighteer

The Spear Counterpart would be Shota.

^^^ I would like it to be a fanspeak page, yes. I'm not sure whether Fast Eddie would allow that, he was kind of against this page being made at all.

^^ That is correct, and the spear counterpart for Loli is Shota.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:08:53 PM by Arha

Lolicon isn't fanspeak. It is a genre and a plot element, and it's highly tropable at that. It needs its own page in Main where it can accessibly direct new readers to its subtropes and sister tropes, instead of being buried in Analysis or Useful Notes where no one can find it. Information about the concept (is that what you mean by "industry"?) would be infinitely more useful in the Lolicon article than a single character trope that is its own subtrope.

The character trope still needs an article, clearly, but Lolicon is the least practical place to put it — why should readers have to pick through a subtrope in order to get to its supertrope? Keeping Lolicon as disambiguation breaks less inbounds, requires less wick-fixing, and would provide the most immediately useful information.

I know I'm trying to shut the gate after the horse has fled, but I don't understand the merits of what's being discussed at all.

We're not talking about lolicon when we mention the fanspeak page. We're talking about Loli when we say that.

Also, lolicon is a character trope. Someone is referred to as a lolicon. The genre and themes and stuff goes somewhere else.

edited 23rd Sep '11 4:59:51 PM by Arha

The lolicon character type is a subtrope of the lolicon genre. It's not the first thing people are looking for when they want to know what lolicon is. People shouldn't have to go "somewhere else" to get to the first thing.

The "genre and themes and stuff" represent a collection of tropes that includes the character type. What reason is there to let the character type alone dominate the article and functionally exclude all of the other important information?

I really don't think "lolicon" is a genre, outside of things like Comic LO, which we don't really cover.

What we're interested in is the lolicon character type, which is found outside the "lolicon genre" (which is a misnomer anyway)

The other information would just clutter up the article, so it's supposed to be moved into a namespace or useful notes page. I don't see the issue here.

Anyway, bringing up the Evil Pedophile ykttw again. Once that's out of the way all that's left is the wick cleanup, and I already did about 10% of those earlier.

Edit: Went through the A section of wicks and already took care of ptitles and the redirects. Since I really don't have the attention span to do it all myself I would appreciate it if people would help clean it up as well.

edited 23rd Sep '11 8:35:09 PM by Arha

Cleaned the Bs.

I think this can be locked now. We can make a special efforts to help clean the wicks.

Special efforts thread for wick clean up is here. Please pitch in if you can, and make a post noting how far you got or what letters you did. I'll keep a running update in the first post.

Locking this thread as "business concluded". Thank you all.

edited 25th Sep '11 11:16:06 AM by Madrugada