Venezuela and the Chavez Legacy

Considering all the US has done to Latin America, feel free.

Just don't lump in Americans as a people into the criticism.

edited 23rd Apr '18 7:28:30 PM by TheWildWestPyro

Identity in Latin America has always been a problem.

Nowadays, people don't identify with the cultures you mention, because it'd be incredibly silly to do it. Our population is very homogenized and is neither here nor there. So you'll see lots of people in Mexico openly mock the 'bronze skinned race' people, they simply don't feel identified with the aztecs at all.

And yes, a lot of it has to do with stuff as simple as skin color, because us humans are dumb like that.

And if you would know the least bit about indigenous tribes is that they are incredibly rich and varied as opposed to one hegemonic bloc. Archaeologists separate Mayans, Incas and Aztecs into comfortable groups but they themselves are divided into hundreds of regional tribes. Which is why the Iroquis confederacy is such a rare thing to see. No. Latin America has no identity that people can firmly grasp, hence why we howl and thrash about anything that gives us worldwide recognition.

Even more 'advanced' economically countries like Chile and Argentina still struggle with it: it's why the Argentinian government can single handledy mantain a jingoistic movement based on the falkland islands and how it's theirs and not british, logic nothwithstanding, to propel the same ol' party control they have had.

Latin American countries have an identity issue where the population have few things to cling to. Hence why they cling to what little there is. Soccer. Ecology. A canal. Music. it's why some latin americans are bothered with Mexico being so loud and annoying about their...everything: the history of latin america's colonization basically began and finished in mexico, after all. And they are very loud and very proud, yet no one else cares and just sees it as gorilla chest thumpin' cuz' they know it's a rather empty achievement that doesn't really give them any substance.

The people look to the past to see what they can relate to, and when they find nothing, they will craft their own golden calves to worship, and wage war in their name. Not to mention the poor education in the latin americas contributes to all of this since kids end up growing in a place where the only thing they have in common is how shitty their futures will be...

Uh...the Aztecs and Incas were a heck of a lot more unified than the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy ever was. Centralized administrations, codified laws enforced on subject or tributary peoples, hereditary leadership, capital cities, military orders, the list goes on and on. Of all the Native American groups those were the two that were closest to some form of state formation as would be recognized by Europeans.

The Haudenosaunee are a lot more loosely organized, and decisions from Onondaga are few. It's an alliance, not an empire.

I know, I was making a case here in venezuela and how chavismo use the rebelion as is main ideological and rhetoric symbol.

In general chavismo use this spirit of the small atacking the strong and the idea of getting away with it by being "vivo"(which is cleaver) which is why is fail coup atempt is romantized as strugle for freedom.

if you care to dsicuss that, there hsould be a better suited on topic subject for that. Suffice to say, no. the aztec and inca empires did not have much of that which you claimed they had. They barely even had much of a written language, relying more on pictographs.

Point being latin america has a problem with identity that the united states has 'fixed' by pretty much putting their blacks, latinos and natives in reservations or ghettos and otherifying them. Much harder to do that here when everyone is much more homogenized.

The US does have identity issues, ask what Is a true American and things turn ugly and confusing.

Only the Right Wingers are gonna become really ugly. American Leftists pretty much accept everyone.

Also, you mentioned how Neither Maduro or Chavez don't like mentioning the URSS or the Nordic countries. That's interesting

edited 23rd Apr '18 9:12:58 PM by KazuyaProta

You do know that the Haudenosaunee didn't have pictographs, right? That's the bizarre thing to me here. You claimed that the Aztecs and Incas didn't have much organization...then cited "the Iroquois Confederacy" as something that was rare and organized. Not to mention that written language =/= complex society in the first place.

The Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations were the most technologically sophisticated and politically complex peoples in the New World. That doesn't make them "better" in some way than groups like the Haudenosaunee; it's just a fact, and I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it—your points about the issues with Latin American identity don't require we pretend away past societies in order to make.

Groups need not lack a past in order to be emotionally severed from that past. Being cut off from you own history and searching for an identity is par for the course for most First Nations' groups, North and South American, to one extent or another. As a Haudenosaunee friend of mine once noted, when she works with Indigenous children often one of the hardest parts for her is when they tell her they're from a First Nation, she asks "which one" and they have no idea. Your point about identity crises stands. I'm just not sure why you're trying to argue about it in this fashion.

edited 23rd Apr '18 10:01:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Again. Find another better suited on topic thread for that, and i'll be happy to talk about it.

I'm a living example of how that works.

My family tries to boost that we were Inca peasants...but no, my dad is more likely to be a Chanca Descendant.

The Chankas were the Arch-Enemy of the Incas in their early days.

(Now, is likely that we have ascendency of both groups, due to the Incaic conquest)

edited 23rd Apr '18 10:19:32 PM by KazuyaProta

With all due respect, no. It's not a discussion I'm interested in having. I respond to questionable statements when they are made; I don't go looking for them. So let's drop it at that.

There's a lot of mixing up here too, and a lot of difficulty with identity as a result of it. Now, obviously, there's nothing wrong with the mixing in and of itself, but it can create real issues when people try looking for an identity. And that's without even getting into what happens when people want to deal with both Indigenous and Euro-American sides of their families; I don't know what it's like for you guys, but up here the debate over who can claim Metis status is pretty crazy at times.

Which to loop back 'round to the thread topic, is one of the things wannabe autocrats like Chavez, Maduro, et al, can exploit. They can tell people "I know what your identity is supposed to be," and in every postcolonial society there will be people desperate enough for an identity to embrace it. You see similar patterns in a number of African and Middle Eastern countries (Saddam's efforts to manufacture Iraqi identity are especially well-studied).

edited 23rd Apr '18 10:34:37 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Meh, I believed a lot of that myself, but at the end of the day if you ask me, the thing that keeps holding us back are the economic problems more than anything else. We in Latin America have all the resources like to boosts our economies in a relatively short amount of time, so once that is done It's just matter of working on a better education system that pushes a lot of patriotic ideals, that's it.

It won't happen as long as the rotten latin american far left and the US and other international companies are there for their own interests. Most likely, since we will probably face the communist guerrilla again, Venezuela will probably have a huge role in Latin America's future, now that I think about it.

Here would be a good place to talk about how countries like Peru are treating Venezuelans with the classic "Venezuelans are stealing our jobs !!"?

It's fortunately not a common thing, but it's a thing.

Peruviar poverty rising a 1% is just a perfect scapegoat to blame them for all the evils on the country.

Are kinda more worrying by a lot of people teelling venezuelan are rude and disrespectfull.

I dont know how many is true vs people just complain they are not the perfect foregenier.

Inmigrants are always a good scapegoat for all evils on the world.

Also, in our case we got a weird case of white worship mixed with xenophobia.

The reactions to white Venezuelans is just...weird. A weird mix of white worship and xenophobia. People want to both like and fear them.

"Brown" Venezuelans? Well, People is mostly apathetic towards them.

Oh, and of course, peruvian people is more likely to buy things from a white Venezuelan from a brown Peruvian.

Is just really weird.

This look like satire, but is just how "democracy" in Venezuela works◊

I have to giggle and then cry

There's the whole cryptocurrency thing which is just deranged—and of course the Russians are involved.

http://time.com/5206835/exclusive-russia-petro-venezuela-cryptocurrency/

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/venezuela-offers-india-discounted-oil-boost-petro-confidence/

Some political prisoners armed something like a riot today in El Helicoide as a way of protest against the terrible conditions some of them are in. The US Embassy said they were worried because there are some gringos in that place.

Did any politician in the US said something about it?...

edited 16th May '18 4:58:11 PM by Malebranche

And now the MUD said they are not to avail the election.

Well, that is intersting, to said the least....

The political prisoners aren't giving up on the riot. The police aren't allowing family members to get close to El Helicoide...

Those guys have balls. Now that's the way It's done...

edited 17th May '18 10:17:37 AM by Malebranche

The Lima group (Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Guyana and Saint Lucia) have condemned the presidential election as fraudulent, and are downgrading diplomatic relations.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela-canada-maduro-election-president-1.4671883

Uh, I didnt knew that a international coalition had the name of my capital.

And I am feeling proud of my country for once.

It says something about Chavez when most of the hemisphere joins a club specifically aimed at removing him and his regime from power.

Sadly, Beijing and Moscow are still in his corner.

edited 21st May '18 5:23:28 PM by Rationalinsanity

Thanks for sharing. Well, a shit load of countries aren't ok with what happened in the elections and are doing what they can to pressure the government. The participation on the elections was record low to the point that not even the reds could inflate the numbers that much...

The opposition seems to finally be willing to work together for once, so let's see how things continue to change for now. I hope the military reacts...

Yeah, I hope that something can be done.

Chavez was disliked for the continent, but Maduro just got the role of the Hate Sink of Latin America. He was Chavez but with none of the charisma.