Marvel Cinematic Universe

May Hemsworth and his family enjoy their time together

RE: Hemsworth and Alzheimer’s:

Aw, man. Getting the gnawing feeling that you might get Alzheimer’s has got to be the worst feeling. Great on him taking a break from movies and wanting to be with family.

Here's hoping they make the most out of it.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Nov 22nd 2022 at 6:05:52 AM

So of the 3 MCU movie villains of this year (Wanda, Gorr, Namor) who was your favorite?

I have to admit, despite all the flaws each movie had, the villains were none of them. And the decision for me is quite hard, but I'd say Gorr comes slightly ahead of Namor.

For menace and impact I'd say Wanda. For characterization I'd say Namor. Gorr is okay too.

My favorite movie villain this year was definitely Namor. He had very human characteristics, perfect characterization, and motivations that make you both want to side with him and side against him ala Thanos. The way he was "defeated" also made me curious to see what can be done with him in the future.

Wanda was frightening for sure, but the way she fell to Sudden Sequel Heel Syndrome really prevented me from taking her too seriously. I spent the entirety of MoM going "Okay, but you're gonna become good again, right?" and lo and behold, that's exactly what happened.

I felt Gorr could've been a lot cooler than he actually ended up, but was seriously neutered in the final project. Had he been put in an R-rated project and actually, y'know, butchered some gods, I think he would've been incredible. As it stands though, Gorr is really just as a slightly updated Malekith clone. And I really put the emphasis on "slightly".

I didn't get what Namor's deal was. How did he plan on conquering the entire world? At least when Wanda's plan falls apart to any scrutiny, it's because she was actually crazy and running on pure emotion. Namor and Talocan are treated as a serious threat like they actually could take over the world. He's supposed to be this brilliant mastermind, but he's just an invincible bruiser in execution. I think I'm in the vast minority here, but I did not like Namor that much.

Gorr was... there? I don't have any strong feelings about him. I think I blacked out that whole movie after the twentieth time the goat did the funny scream noise. It was a fantastic performance, but it was really cut short by the tone of the movie. That opening scene before it all goes to comedy hell is one of my favourite villain origins they've done. But, yeah. That's all.

I have to give it to Wanda for having a motive you can follow, staying relatively sympathetic, having a realistic goal that she was close to achieving, and being damn intimidating and cool. I get that the A to B with her character was kind of missing, but at least the B was explained in great detail. Plus, they keep the stakes smaller (there is a vague threat to the multiverse, but it's barely touched on and the drive of the narrative is protecting America Chavez), which makes it easier to invest in. No lofty "take over the world" scheme, no convoluted genie wish. Just, save the girl from the invincible monster.

Regardless, they're all better than whatsherwhat and whosthewho from Ms. Marvel.

I don't think Namor was ever really classified as a so-called "brilliant mastermind". He's a God-Emperor who loves his people and tried to negotiate with Wakanda peacefully, only to fly off the handle and threaten to flood everything because some of his subjects died at the hands of colonists for the first time in centuries. Plus, given his experiences with the surface world all those years ago, it's not like Namor would really care if he kills everyone by flooding the Earth. All that would mean is more space for him and his people to live in. He can figure out what to do with the remains of the old civilization later.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Nov 22nd 2022 at 10:05:38 AM

If we follow the plot of Wakanda Forever closely, the driver of the main conflict is vibranium: specifically, Wakanda revealing it to the other nations of the world and those nations beginning their own rush to acquire it. Vibranium is a magical substance that can allow the creation of weapons far more powerful than anything we've seen before, and so the first nation to obtain its own would have a decisive strategic advantage.

Namor believes that, were this to happen, Talocan (and Wakanda) would lose their technological edge and fall prey to a new wave of colonialism, or at least be unable to properly defend their interests. So he intends a first strike on the world, destroying all other nations before they get too strong to defeat.

His methodology for this strike seems to involve flooding everyone. We see this power in Wakanda, so it could potentially work... at least it's no more insane than other supervillain plots that we've seen in the MCU. It's kind of beside the point though, because the film is about Wakanda vs. Talocan, not Talocan vs. everyone.

Edit: Tagged some of the plot details.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 22nd 2022 at 12:59:18 PM

Meh, It just didn't click with me.

I'd advise to keep mum on the plot details of Wakanda Forever in this thread (or at least, spoil them). We both have a dedicated thread for the movie and it's barely out.

Edited by Gaon on Nov 22nd 2022 at 10:01:41 AM

Gotta give it to Wanda and Namor. Gorr is fine but the movie really hampered him from being used well, while at least Wanda and Namor could actually feel like major characters.

If I could go beyond story-wise, I’d also say Wanda and Namor got better deigns and powers. Wanda’s suit looks great and they managed to adapt Namor’s speedo look while I neither like Gorr’s more human appearance or those horribly dull white robes he’s stuck wearing.

Plus All-Black looks significantly less cool and more like a generic sword with all its cool morph weapons traits adapted out. At least WF kept Namor’s flight via his cute little feet wings.

I didn't like Wanda. Her role in Multiverse of Madness suffered from literally just doing WandaVision again only shittier. She could glare real mean and got big gory action scenes, but it was all spectacle without an ounce of substance.

Gorr was okay. I've heard a lot of his scenes were cut and I believe it, because the film treats him like a complex and interesting villain but the stuff we see is basically just serviceable bad guy schlock. He felt very generic to me. He serves his role adequately as the guy that the interesting characters must beat up, but he's never really handled as an interesting character in his own right.

Also, for a character called "God-Slayer", he does surprisingly little god-slaying. His whole plot is that he wants to solve a cosmic puzzle to win 1 free reality warp, and he's a bad guy so it would be bad if he wins the contest. You could literally replace him with any other villain ever and the plot would be the same.

He's not bad, but he is mediocre. Fills the role of "Insert Bad Guy" well enough without ever being a truly meaningful part of the plot.

Namor fucking nailed it. Wakanda Forever's central thesis is basically, "Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown." And you can feel that in every character that occupies a leadership position, especially its villain. The film did a fantastic job of making its conflict feel less like a superhero story and more like a genuine conflict between nations; Something that can't be resolved as easily as beating up the supervillain and sending him away to superjail forever.

Namor is a crucial piece of the story and its dissertation on leadership. He's still the bad guy and he gets his share of despicable moments, but a lot of attention is paid to the fact that as a sovereign ruler, it just isn't so simple as "Punch him until he dies and then we win forever." What he means to his people, what his people mean to him, and both the beauty and dangers of his unique culture are all put on display and dissected throughout the film.

Wakanda Forever is the best MCU film I've seen in the often-disappointing Phase Four, and Namor is a part of the reason for why that is.

Random reminder that it's canon that Namor owns a film studio.

Is it racist to say something involving Namor "smells fishy"?

One wonders if anyone ever asked him for some tartar sauce

Now I want a scene in Wonder Man where Simon's agent tries to get a shooting permit in/near Talokan, only for Namor to quite literally kick him out.

Hah. I'd like to see that.

...have Namor and Simon ever fought. He's not treated like it most of the time, but Wonder Man is supposed to be in that same ball park as Thor, Hulk and Namor.

Yes they have◊

Even back when Simon was wearing his second most terrible costume.

Nice.

If you've been in comics long enough, you can find out that everybody has fought everybody at some point or another.

I think it would be funny if Herc and She-Hulk face off, but both keep getting sidetracked by how hot they find the other. Treating their epic rivalry more like its and awkward teen romance, to the eye-rolling bewilderment of their friends.

Herc: She's just so amazing, brother. Every blow I landed against her she matched in kind and when I thought I had her figured out she'd surprise me with an manoeuvre of her own. She's, smart, she's beautiful she's incredible, she's-

Hephaestus: What father wanted you to best?

Something funny about rivalries is that despite their longstanding rivalry, Namor's infamous flooding of Wakanda happened during Shuri's reign as queen.

And in the end Namor got his due not by any Wakandan but by the Squadron Supreme who in the first issue of their new series at the time proceeded to destroy Atlantis and decapitate him.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 22nd 2022 at 2:48:16 AM

The funny thing is, Namor didn't even have to take responsibility for the flooding, being possessed by the Phoenix at the time.

But he is such a dick that he didn't feel the need to explain himself, let alone apologize even once to T'Challa. Instead, he felt the need to constantly mock him and rub it in.

I gotta go with Wanda, she was absolutely terryfing as the bad guy of MOM. Namor is a VERY charismatic take on the the character, but I was never really sold on his or Talokan's threat.

Gorr is ok. His set up is fantastic, and I really loved his denountment, but the movie doesn't do enough with him in between.

I feel like the DSMoM portrayal of Wanda doesn't work given that after the level of care that the WandaVision writers put into exploring Wanda's troubled side, Michael Waldron and Sam Raimi neglected to do the same.

That's before the ways the movie more or less retroactively reduces WandaVision to being nothing more than an elaborate explanation for how Wanda got the Darkhold in DSMoM, what with the fact that Waldron decided to skip over showing Wanda slowly being corrupted because he didn't want someone else to get the credit for writing Wanda as a villain.

At this point I'm crossing my fingers hoping that those rumors of a solo Scarlet Witch movie or show being in development turn out to be true, and if they are true, they'll make sure Jac Schaeffer is doing the writing.

I was fine with all of it.

Seeing her fall would've been neat, but the surprise reveal in the movie where she's faking through her entire meeting with Strange is super effective at selling her as big trouble, which the movie takes full advantage for the remainder of its run time.

Her just steaming through the alternate Earth's greatest heroes is EASILY one of the greatest feats any villain has pulled in the entire MCU.

I love Wanda, but I'm not bothered at all by the left turn her character took, specially when she was already on shaky ground in Wandavision and the whole thing with the voices of her kids calling to her.