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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
That Guy
Going off that for the "Why are good cops not doing something about bad cops"? That actually HAS been going on, but more often than not, the bad cops manage to turn the whistle-blowing agency into a "Find the rat and fire him so we can get away with more" agency.
Because fucking politics, strongarming and underhandedness.
Edited by Pendrake on Feb 25th 2021 at 9:40:45 AM
Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Lost in Space
You are correct in principle, but what if practicing your religion "requires" you to perform an action that is illegal? What if you do something that everyone thinks is bad but you are shielded from consequences under a religious freedom umbrella?
The argument about police applies to the argument about churches because in both cases the rot has sunk too deep and there is no longer a way for it to be excised from within.
Hypothetical: If our government attempted to outlaw Dominionism on the premise that it is a terrorist organization, what would happen?
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:45:04 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Figure of Hourai
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
One fully appreciated by the founders of the United States.I'm sorry, but I didn't realise that "be grateful it's not Europe in the middle of the Thirty Years' War" was your reasoning for why every religious follower in the United States should be grateful for the privilege of being allowed to have any religion at all. If you were comparing to the USSR, that might at least be something, but "it's worse somewhere else" is the most lazy argument you could ever make.
Avatar Source
Would that it were so simple.
Technically, yes, but also no. For example, in the US, a priest is not legally required to report a crime revealed during confession, as it is considered a breach of confidentiality. This is more insulated than, for example, a psychologist, who is professionally obligated to report a patient to the authorities if, at any point, they feel that the individual is a threat to themself or others.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:45:39 PM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Many religions have required their members to break the law. After all, abolitionists and the Underground Railroad actively resisted slavery. So did many churches working against segregation. When the law is evil, the righteous must go against it.
That's probably not what you meant, though.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lost in Space
It's not about having a religion. It is about having the privilege of practicing your religion without government interference, which has been taken all the way up to suffering no legal consequences for crimes like rape, murder, and the advocacy of insurrection.
Even outside criminal law, churches in America are tax exempt because the government is required by the Supreme Court to give them the maximum privilege afforded to any civil enterprise. This has enabled some of the worst behavior we've seen from these institutions. So let's revoke this status. Oops, here come all the Christians saying "but my church is good!"
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
A procrastination in of itself
You’re conflating being part of an organisation with having an identity, being a Christian isn’t a profession. We (or at least I) don’t get upset when a police department in California doesn’t arrest a dirty cop in Virginia, why are you demanding an independent church in Maine carry out corrective action against a independent church in Texas?
The Catholic Church isn’t accountable for Protestant evangelicals, only for its own (many bad) actions.
You’re really gonna condemn the Episcopal Church for using their constitutional privilege to *checks notes* marry gay people?
You seem to be under the impression that all Christian churches are part of some big organisation like a police force, they’re not, several wars have been fought to ensure that.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Figure of Hourai
Because if you don't, then you get the 30 Years' War.
Lost in Space
Charles Phipps: Church members may engage in civil disobedience like any other citizen, but they must also be subject to the consequences for it, such as arrest, without shielding themselves under religious freedom.
Silasw: I don't see "Defund the police" calling out specific police departments, even though the Bangor, Maine PD has absolutely no connection to the Los Angeles, CA PD. The problem is when religious immunity is used to shield all organizations from consequences.
So, I'm starting a new movement: "Abolish religious immunity". Let them sink or swim on their own merits.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:58:02 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
That Guy
Hell, even specific sects of religions are diverse. As I've mentioned previously, there THIRTY different branches of Mormons. Not to mention all the branches of Baptists, or United Churches, hell, even Catholicism has a bunch of different branches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Old Catholic if you're wondering, and the Anglican and Lutheran churches are direct splitoffs with little change in doctrine).
Edited by Pendrake on Feb 25th 2021 at 10:01:12 AM
Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
This is not the "Religion-Thread" everyone, let's get the thread back to Politics before it gets too far into different territory here...
That Guy
Well, I believe the point trying to be made is don't try to generalize an entire religious belief into one political sphere.
There are many religions that fit one, but you can't unilaterally paint all under a basic belief system with the same brush.
We've had plenty of examples of how that's happened to Muslims (or even just folks who aren't christians period, someone did torch a Buddhist monastery after Sept 11th in the US) in recent decades. It's always going to be a touchy subject.
As Silas said, Wars have been fought over this a lot. My family name's old enough I have ancestry that fought in more than one of the Crusades.
Edited by Pendrake on Feb 25th 2021 at 10:06:40 AM
Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
A procrastination in of itself
Do you not think they should call out specific departments? Because I certainly think they should. There’s a reason I tend to hate on the NYPD and police unions specifically, because they’re actual organisations as opposed to societal groupings.
Can you define religious immunity for me? Are we talking taxation or some kind of criminal immunity that I’m not aware of? Or do you just mean the cultural belief that results in churches being allowed to get away with shady shit?
That’s entirely reasonable, my issue is with you assuming that the good churches (which I freely admit are few are far between) are going to object to this idea even if it’s done in a way that doesn’t harm their ability to do charitable work.
Edited by Silasw on Feb 25th 2021 at 6:06:14 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Figure of Hourai
Let's not forget the blindingly obvious that abolishing religious immunity whilst one party is essentially run by a particular version of a religion is just going to lead to the targeting of minority religions.
Avatar Source
Not to mention that the US just had a president who wanted to ban Muslims from entering the country.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 25th 2021 at 7:09:43 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Moving onto more important things than religion (seriously, knock it off right now)
Sen. John Thune, Opposing $15 Min Wage, Says He Earned $6 As a Kid—That's $24 With Inflation
Congressional Republicans have largely opposed the Democratic proposal to raise the minimum wage. They argue a wage hike will harm small businesses who have already been economically harmed during the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.
"I started working by bussing tables at the Star Family Restaurant for $1/hour & slowly moved up to cook – the big leagues for a kid like me– to earn $6/hour," Thune wrote in a Wednesday evening tweet. "Businesses in small towns survive on narrow margins. Mandating a $15 minimum wage would put many of them out of business."
It's unclear which years Thune worked at the restaurant in his hometown of Murdo, South Dakota, where he attended high school.
However, Thune was born in 1961. Assuming he was earning $6 an hour by the time he was 17—the last year one is still considered a non-adult under the national age of consent, which is 18—the year would have been 1978.
A $6 an hour wage in 1978, adjusted to modern inflation rates, would equal $24.07 an hour in 2021. A person making $24.07 an hour, working 40 hours a week and 52 weeks a year would earn over $50,000 annually before taxes. John Thune minimum wage increase kid childhood
A person working the same hours and earning the Democratic-proposed wage of $15 an hour would earn just over $31,200 a year, before taxes. A person working the same hours and earning the current national minimum wage of $7.25 an hour would earn just over $15,080 a year, before taxes. The Department of Health and Human Services lists the poverty line for a single-person household in the contiguous 48 states and District of Columbia is $12,880 per year.
Edited by ScubaWolf on Feb 25th 2021 at 1:13:44 PM
"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
I used to be uncomfortable with the 'saying all Christians are as bad as evangelicals is like saying all Muslims are terrorists' argument. It felt reductionist. Like I was downplaying the terrorists, and what normal Muslims went through by comparison. Like, I thought, as bad as evangelicals are, terrorists are way worse.
I no long think that evangelicals are significantly better than terrorists. And so I am less uncomfortable with making the argument.
And that is the context behind the next sentence I will write: As a Christian, I am politely asking everyone to not act like evangelicals are representative of what all Christians are like. I honestly don't understand how those people can call themselves Christian despite fighting for things that so blatantly go against everything Jesus preached.
Edited by Gilphon on Feb 25th 2021 at 1:16:11 PM
Unless Thune was a street kid his childhood experience ain't pertinent to a minimum wage discussion. We are talking about people who need to feed themselves, not people who earn a bit of money as a sidejob.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
That Guy
Yes, well, the vasty majority of Republicans never had to grow up near the poverty line.
Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
And even as a side job, that's a huge paycheck when adjusted for inflation.
I already feel the need to point out that we're referring explictly to White Evangelicals.
"Evangelicals" gets applied very often to larger groups than Trumps.
Even if White Evangelicals were almost all on his side.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
I also wonder how what he earned as a child many decades ago is relevant to today.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Worth noting that Facebook responded to both representatives' putting videos up about the incident.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "freedom of religion" doesn't mean "freedom from legal prosecution when you commit a crime" - it means you're free to practice your religion.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 25th 2021 at 6:40:33 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.