The General US Politics Thread

Besides, "better than Trump" is an incredibly low bar to clear.

This is probably veering off-topic, but the thing with Tankies is that they tend to be supporting the greater of two evils under the premise of anti-colonialism, and they are generally outright denialists of attrocities (i.e. denying various war crimes by Assad and denying China's genocidal policies towards Uighrs).

On the other hand, while I find it plausible that Cuba's high literacy rate is actually a Potemkin village kind of thing, praise for that aspect of Castro's rule is AFAIK a fairly common (mis?)perception among American liberals. Ditto praise for its health system.

I'm mostly just tired of leftists holding water for these regimes. Even beyond political inexpediency, it's just poor judgment at best and morally reprehensible at worst. The Worker's Party has done that in Brazil for Chavez back when he was around and Maduro in the beginning, and all it does is make them and the rest of the left look less credible when they criticize Bolsonaro for praising the military dictatorship, thusly giving weight to "bothsiderism".

I don't think Sanders considers those regimes to be "good" overall but it makes it seem like he does when he says these kinds of things. Rule of thumb, don't praise authoritarian governments, even with qualifiers.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 24th 2020 at 12:03:21 PM

"Yeah, how dare he be intellectually honest and consistent instead of lying about what he believes for the sake of political expediency!

"

Yeah, like trump, he is so honest about being a scumbag, isnt that great?.

......

Sorry, but as venezuelan this piss me off, the cuban goverment was responsable of influncing chavista goverment in their path of the dictatorship and cuban influence is strong in my country this day, as teacher said "you have to give to cuba, the colonize a country without firing a single shot"

And let be honest "x goberment is bad BUT" is the tankie version of "some of my best friend are x" and it show the tendecy of the left sometimes to think of themselves a holder moral clarity, which if often translate to make statement that let be clear, are apologia.

" thusly giving weight to "bothsiderism"."

Because a some point, that critic does have a point, the left does tend to act like awfull element didn't exist, not true scotman or just pretend left is always good by defeault and awfull element just exist as deviation of it, a way to said "we are always good people".

so as whole I dont care if sander is a castrist or not, we dont go around asking when someone from the right or god help it a centrist said tone deaf shit, he said this shit and he double down on it, fuck him as far as I care.

Edited by unknowing on Feb 24th 2020 at 12:05:17 PM

As mentioned, the things he's praising these regimes for are things other countries that aren't so authoritarian have also accomplished. Why not praise them instead?

Edited by M84 on Feb 25th 2020 at 12:00:45 AM

Hitler Ate Sugar, folks. These fallacies make good TV but making a huge rhetorical point out of them is just dumb. Fuck "optics"; since when did we decide to care about appearances more than truth. That's how we got Trump elected to begin with.

Can’t see a good reason why people would turn against normalizing relations with Cuba. If you want an isolated, authoritarian nation to open up and liberalize politically, engaging with them is the best way of doing that. Isolation makes dictatorships more powerful.

It’s why the Soviet Union collapsed shortly after Gorbachev started opening things up.

It’s one of the reason why I think the US needs to normalize relations with Iran. (Another big reason is that one of Iran’s primary motivations for pursuing a nuclear program is fear that America will invade them. Warmongering against them and isolating them is counterproductive.)

In most circumstances, “punishing” dictatorships by cutting off their interactions just immiserates their people and makes their government stronger - and lets their government blame you for everything that goes wrong.

Edited by Galadriel on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:02:36 AM

I'm not seeing your point there. Trump appeared to be a racist, sexist, dirtbag and hey what do you know he's just that.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:02:23 AM

The problem isn't thinking that authoritarian dictatorships and dictators sometimes do reasonable things, because it's very rare that any lasting authority completely fails to do anything of note (I think Pol-Pot may be the main example of nothing but negatives); it's saying it.

Bad people doesn't mean universally incompetent.

I can easily let the Cuba thing slide because it is true despite the bad optics. But the China claim is pretty damn ridiculous when you consider the whole situation where they exacerbated the poverty situation first before trying to undo some of the damage. And unfortunately that myth is a bit more tangible than I'd like it to be, but to say more is importing drama.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:05:50 AM

@Fighter: Trump got the right optics for his followers. Unless you want the Dems to become the Tankie party, you should care.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:04:20 AM

x6 No, that fallacy concerns assuming anything done by an evil person is also evil because that person did it.

This is more along the lines of saying someone isn't so bad because they happened to Pet the Dog or something.

Edited by M84 on Feb 25th 2020 at 12:04:01 AM

To be fair to Bernie, I don't think it's actually going to harm him with his die hard base, the Latino/Asian Communities or most Young Voters. The only people his comments could harm him with are swing voters, Cuban and Cuban Americans, and Centrist/Moderate Democrats. Republicans and Business people of most Stripes were never gonna vote for him in the first place.

These stupid comments aren't enough to make me not vote for him in November. Especially with the Alternative(s)...

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:07:57 AM

The larger point to get across should be that even brutal authoritarian regimes can implement basic social programs, yet The Greatest Country On Earth (tm) cannot?

Of course, the inevitable counterpoint to that is "BUT SOCIALISM," but then that transitions into your point that other countries indeed have those things and have not turned into brutal authoritarian regimes.

Edited by Eschaton on Feb 24th 2020 at 8:06:18 AM

@Fighteer

The man believes what he believes. I doesn't really matter to me whether I agree or disagree with him (but I agree and disagree with him about a variety of things in about equal measure), nearly as much as it matters to me that he's not willing to lie for the sake of 'optics'.

And I have to point out that Bernie's not making these statements in a vacuum, he's responding to questions in an interview. Journalists are specifically asking him about this and he has three options: Lie (in which case the journalists asking these questions will immediately point out that it's not consistent with his past statements), keep mum (in which case journalists asking these questions will immediately point to his past statements and ask him to say whether he still believes those things) or tell the truth.

Edited by Robrecht on Feb 24th 2020 at 5:08:31 PM

I'll worry if/when Sanders starts saying good things about Asad and/or when he makes Tulsi Gabbard his running mate. But I think both those things are quite unlikely. At least I hope so.

Edit - and

Those are both really good points.

Edited by Hodor2 on Feb 24th 2020 at 10:07:28 AM

@Eschaton: Maybe don't bring them at all. Nevermind that his comparisons are absurd given Cuban Medics, despite all their memetic reputation as super healers are actually very incompetent and a Horribly abused too

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:09:41 AM

See and if that's how he worded his statement that would've been an excellent gotcha moment, because then he would be making an emphatic statement about his campaign that could be used to drive people still on the fence to vote for him. However instead the way he approached it is closer to waxing philosophic about the grayness which is kind of dumb. It's not going to make me not vote for him, but I think people, especially those of us who were directly affected by those regimes, do have a right to be at least a little vexed by his comments.

The chances of him praising Assad are basically zero, I don't think he's that stupid.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:11:56 AM

People aren't saying Sanders should lie. They're criticizing him for making statements that are either false or tone-deaf.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 24th 2020 at 12:11:03 PM

Re: Eschaton’s post

If current trends continue, life expectancy in China will be higher than life expectancy in America within five years or so. And China’s still a developing country.

That alone should be a major red flag that something is seriously wrong with the US system.

Edited by Galadriel on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:09:24 AM

....so is good because at least is honest?.

Because that was what the media said about trump rambling when the republican primary start back them in 2016.

is good that sander said what he belives, is just that is opinion is bullshit.

Edited by unknowing on Feb 24th 2020 at 12:08:32 PM

I find it telling that some of our actual Latin American posters are the ones most critical of Sanders' Castro comments.

Meanwhile, it's the posters of Chinese-American heritage (including myself) who are most annoyed by the praise of the CCP.

This won't stop me from voting for him in the GE if it comes to that, but I will have to resist the urge to vomit afterwards.

Edited by M84 on Feb 25th 2020 at 12:12:01 AM

Furthermore, people don't like hearing the truth. they want lies fed to them. This goes for all sides of the spectrum.

Lots of people SAY they want honest politicians, but in practice, it's the exact opposite.

Lots of people say they want honest politicians. They also say they want politicians willing to compromise.

Until of course the honest politicians say stuff they don't like or compromise on issues important to them. Original Position Fallacy.

Though if being asked relevant questions by journalists, what is the winning strategy here? I imagine there isn't one that wouldn't still have lots of complaints.