This is NOT about the rename: Yuri Genre

Again: NOT about the rename, so please do not lock this until we're done.

I'm actually fine with the new name, I was just mad because Fast Eddie did it without explaining why, precisely. But that's irrelevant to the current discussion.

The new name is intended to imply an anime only trope. Basically, Queer Romance in Japan. There's nothing wrong with that; anime is basically Cartoons in Japan. This does mean, however, that we need to cleanup the examples to get rid of ones that are not Japanese or Japanese-influenced.

If anyone has any problems with this plan, bring it up now.

I've seen the word "yuri" used both ways to mean lesbian themed works in Japan and lesbian themed works in general. It's easy enough to filter between which examples are Japanese and which ones aren't so it's not really necessary to split them up as it can be up to the reader.

It's pointless duplication to the same examples duplicated on both Queer Romance and Yuri Genre. If we are going to have both articles, then we should distinguish them from each other by limiting Yuri Genre to works that are published under Yuri, make it a subtrope indexed under Queer Romance, and have all western examples listed under Queer Romance.

Otherwise, there is no need to have both articles. If there is going to be no distinction in the example lists, one of the article should be cut.

edited 8th Jul '11 6:44:54 PM by Meeble

That's not true. We could have Queer Romance be for works that have multiple LGBT relationships and Yuri Genre for ones that just focus on lesbians.

edited 8th Jul '11 6:43:26 PM by shimaspawn

That is an option, yes, however that's not how it is currently set up. Right now there are examples duplicated on both pages, which is entirely unnecessary.

edited to add: That will, in my opinion, cause issues with clarity since many Yuri fans would be expecting mostly Japanese works, and most non-Yuri fans wouldn't be able to tell that it means "Lesbian works" just at a glance from the title.

edited 8th Jul '11 6:49:32 PM by Meeble

Oh, I agree they shouldn't be duplicated. But I think Queer Romance is really more of a supertrope. It's for works that are generally about LGBT romance plots. It covers Lesbians, Gays, Intersex, Transexual, Gender Queer. It's a very broad category. This is just a much smaller subset of lesbians and only lesbians.

edited 8th Jul '11 6:48:58 PM by shimaspawn

I think that we should go the route of Wikipedia's Yuri (genre) page, and list works that are published as Yuri, with perhaps a soft-split listing of works that contain Yuri elements.

I'm against a soft-split as those works with yuri elements could easily overwhelm the article from it's true focus. Wikipedia has a lot less Entry Pimps than we do. If you think an example doesn't fit the genre, than it might not be a bad idea to cut it.

Also, I don't see a particular problem with duplicating examples on both Queer Romance and Yuri Genre since the former is supposed to be supertrope of the latter.

Sorry, that's my bad, I forgot that Queer Romance wasn't a supertrope yet. I also think that should be done.

Supertropes should not have duplicate examples to subtropes in any situation, though. If it fits the subtrope, it goes on the subtrope and not the supertrope.

edited 8th Jul '11 7:10:04 PM by Meeble

When did that become official Wiki policy?

Couldn't we have Lesbian Romance as the subtrope, not Yuri Genre?

C Banana, quite some time.

There's nothing that differentiates them at all.

There is an actual genre of Yuri works, which includes Anime, Manga, and other related Japanese media as indicated by The Other Wiki. If Lesbian Romance is a subtrope of Queer Romance, Yuri Genre would be a subtrope of Lesbian Romance.

There is nothing genre specific about it though. It seems to be basically the same genre as the western one, just with the name in Japanese. It doesn't have any unique elements that aren't in Western works aside from general anime tropes.

Well, there's a ridiculous number of Schoolgirl Lesbians stories...

That is true in the same way that there is nothing different (outside of standard Japanese cultural tropes) between Anime and Animation. However, there is value to fans of Anime to have a distinguished listing of Anime titles in the form of the Anime index. There are threads on the fora where people discuss Anime in a manner that distinguishes it from animation in general, just as there are threads on these fora where Yuri is discussed in a manner distinct from Lesbian Romance in general.

In my opinion there is value in having a distinct listing of Yuri works, as it makes it easier for fans of those works to find what they're looking for. Just as we have a listing for Anime distinct from animation, Manga distinct from comic books, etc.

edited 8th Jul '11 7:37:43 PM by Meeble

Couldn't they be listed in the Anime/Manga section of a Lesbian Romance page?

@post 10

I agree we should do something like that, Harem Genre is also in the process of doing that as well. And we do that for quite a few pages.

Its a specific Genre that is different than the standard Lesbian Romance gone over this before.

edited 8th Jul '11 7:46:06 PM by Raso

@ Deboss - Citation? I've never heard this policy before.

@ Meeble - Is it really that difficult to differentiate? I'd say it's rather easy for the most part especially as almost all of the differentiating comes with the separation by medium.

Yes, we have, and there is absolutely nothing unique about it right down to the flowers. Even those are in the Western works with the same frequency that they're in the Eastern ones.

@English Ivy: It could, but doing so offers no advantages over listing them separately, in my opinion.

First, the anime/manga examples would dominate the page, as they currently do on Yuri Genre. If you look at the character counts for both pages, Yuri Genre is currently three times the size of Queer Romance, with around 60% of examples belonging to the Anime folder.

Looking to the future, as both Yuri works and Lesbian themed works get added, the page will hit page length issues and need to be split by media, which would effectively be separating the Japanese works from non-Japanese works anyway. I don't see why we shouldn't just go ahead and make that distinction now.

Second, there is demand for a definition of the Yuri genre itself, and for works that are identified as Yuri. You can see this by looking at the threads we have related to Yuri on this very wiki, which are dominated by discussion of Japanese works with very little digression into general Lesbian fiction.

Having Yuri listed as a sub-index to Lesbian or Queer romance satisfies fans of both groups, as the Yuri works would be no more than a click away, and it satisfies those who are exclusively fans of Yuri, as their preferred works are conveniently grouped together.

This also allows for the Yuri Genre page definition to go in depth about the impact Japanese culture has on Lesbian fiction, which would be out of place on a combined page.

Considering that there are advantages to listing them separately, and no disadvantages to listing them separately, I think that's the way to go.

edited 8th Jul '11 7:59:40 PM by Meeble

There aren't any specifically Japanese elements. None. Everything in the Eastern version is present in the Western so you would end up with two identical genre descriptions.

Well, ok, Love Bubbles, but that's a general Japanese romance trope. Not something genre specific.

edited 8th Jul '11 8:02:41 PM by shimaspawn

Again no, Yuri is marketed to completely different people, as well strictly marketed as a genre carrying specific publications and shows. While Queer Romance is not you got 1 show that maybe does this?

Its a Sub-Genre that carries quite a few tropes.

Very much agree, Yaoi, Bara and Yuri would pwn the Queer Romance page.

edited 8th Jul '11 8:04:08 PM by Raso