Merge into Batman, keep separate, take another option?: Comicbook.Azrael

Should this page be cut in favor of merging it into the Batman page? The content is duplicated on the Batman page.

If it's kept separate, should it be renamed? If nothing else, I think it needs to stay under the comicbook namespace since Azrael is such a widespread name. (I have no familiarity with this character/comic, so I don't know if there's a better alternate title to use.)

edited 6th Jun '11 10:26:48 PM by tombcannon

I'm not sure. From the description, he appears to be his own character and have his own series. I'll let whoever is up to date on their Batman comicbooks talk.

What I can say is that it shouldn't have two images. If somebody wants to make a character page and add pictures for each character, that's cool. Two images in the description is not.

edited 6th Jun '11 11:01:37 PM by Deboss

Azrael meets two of the important criteria for having his own page:

• He has or has had his own title. (Indeed, looking it up just now, he's had over 120 issues of his own title, which I would've guessed less than half that.)
• He has an existence independent from simply being a Batman Supporting Character (and in fact he only rarely shows up in Batman titles these days.)

OTOH, there will be legitimate overlap, owing to the time when Azrael *was* Batman, but that's OK.

There's no real "alternate" name with any currency. His title was called Azraael: Agent of the Bat for a while, but that was more a marketing thing than an actual character name.

edited 7th Jun '11 4:36:01 AM by suedenim

Make way! Make way for X Ray, the resident expert on Azrael, and most things relating to the DCU!

Okay, here's the scoop. Azrael, as much as I love the character, is, at heart, an obscure Batman character. He has always operated in some capacity which related to Batman, and his series was really self-contained. I mean, seriously, I don't think that any of the supporting characters or original villains from his series were ever featured in another book. Ever.

But to say that he operated independently of Batman is a bit of a stretch. I mean, Azrael: Agent of the Bat. And as much as I like him, I don't think Azrael really needs his own page.

And for the record, the original Azrael series ran for exactly 100 issues, not counting the pre-Knightfall miniseries Batman: Sword of Azrael, which ran for 4 issues. The new series ran for 18 issues, not counting the Battle for the Cowl miniseries Batman: Battle for the Cowl: Azrael: Death's Dark Knight, which ran for 3 issues.

Anyway, I think it's good idea to cut the page. And I'll be getting to work on re-arranging the entry on the Batman character page as prescribed...

If he had a 100 issue series run, then that's more than enough for that series to have a page of it's own. Don't cut the page, just tool it to be about that series rather than the character.

Shima took the words right out of my mouth.

As a splitter, keep. He has his own 100-issue series. Rework it like the Zatanna page.

120-some issues is more than enough, and the "Agent of the Bat" thing only appeared after almost 50 issues of a series named simply "Azrael," which if you look at its covers alone, you wouldn't guess that the character had any obvious relationship to Batman.

I'm afraid that all of you are completely missing my point.

I'm not saying that the Azrael series wasn't long enough to have it's own page, I'm saying that both the character and the comic book itself are too obscure, and quite frankly, not very popular, due to him being effectively Exiled from Continuity. (More explanation at the Exiled from Continuity examples list under the "Other" sub-list)

And I've said it before, and I'll say it again;

For the record, the original Azrael series ran for exactly 100 issues, not counting the pre-Knightfall miniseries Batman: Sword of Azrael, which ran for 4 issues. The new series ran for 18 issues, not counting the Battle for the Cowl miniseries Batman: Battle for the Cowl: Azrael: Death's Dark Knight, which ran for 3 issues.

I suggest that anyone wishing to debate further read up on Azrael's entry (all both of them, thanks to yours truly) on the Batman Character Page before debating further. And since I'm pretty much an expert on Azrael, (I am not boasting or exaggerating here), well, I know what I'm talking about.

Really, I LOVE Jean-Paul Valley, and I LOVE Michael Lane's appearance, but I don't really think that either he or his series needs a page all to himself/itself.

Oh, and I need some help with the picture sorting his entry in the Batman character page. I seem to have gotten it messed up a bit. I'm trying to align it to the left...

EDIT: Pardon me, but the Zattana page is WAY different. Zattana is way more popular and has far more potential than Azrael (especially Jean-Paul Valley's Azrael) could ever hope to be. And she's not an obscure Justice League supporting character in the circle of comics, she's WAY BIGGER than that. Comparing Zattana to Azrael is just not fair.

edited 15th Jun '11 4:36:23 PM by XRay

^ This is exactly what No Such Thing As Notability is about. It doesn't matter that the series is obscure. We don't have a threshold on notability that works have to pass before they "deserve" a page. If he's obscure and forgotten, make him a page and some new people will discover him via wikiwalk.

edited 15th Jun '11 4:51:30 PM by Madrugada

There's already precedence for making a page specifically about Azrael's comic series. We have pages about specific Batman miniseries, like Batman Year One, The Dark Knight Returns, The Long Halloween, and so on.

edited 15th Jun '11 4:51:49 PM by MetaFour

Yeah, but we cut all those pages dedicated to individual Batman villains like The Riddler, Scarecrow, Two-Face, and others, right?

(Except for The Joker).

Yeah rework for the series and stick the character entry on the Batman character page and just say he has his own spinoff series with link.

Did those villains have their own series?

-hits you into a bloody pulp with the There Is No Such Thing As Notability hammer-

...Fiiiine. I'll get to work on it. l: l

edited 15th Jun '11 5:20:54 PM by XRay

Thank you.