LGBTQ+ Rights and America

Last I checked the thousands of people who go to mega churches are as much average Americans as you and I are, and as a result the mega churches are just as much an example of modern Christianity as any small town church.

And they attack the way the conservatives use religion; as a tool to suppress the rights of gays and others. TYT attacks the methods and the justifications used, they do not attack the religion itself. People do disgusting things under the guise of religion, and TYT and anyone else is right to attack those justifications. Particularly when those same people ignore the whole "love your neighbor as you love yourself" bit in the New Testament. If it upsets others, that's unfortunate, but they are not attacking the religion itself. They're attacking the ones who use it to hurt and suppress others.

In any case, Gabrael has a point. This attack on an individual in her own home is the extreme logical end of "these guys violate biblical principles." There always seems to be someone willing to do that.

There is a few really big problems with that:

1) You cannot hold the definition of what it means to be a Christian. You can swear until your blue in the face that your interpretation of Christianity is more "true" than any other sect, but that is nothing but pure opinion.

2) Stop nitpicking every little detail just because you don't like the overall message. I regularly watch the Young Turks and have for over 5 years. You can't judge by one clip. And you cannot dispute their concerns come from valid fears and reasoning. I don't see any hardcore liberal groups or atheists calling the LGBT community "evil" or and "abomination".

3) You're so tired of people "attacking" your Christian faith? Please. The last time Christians were treated anywhere close to the same condition to how LGBT people are in America was well, never. It's always been a protected and privlidged group. Whether you like it or not that little book Christians like so much has been used to justify some really disgusting things, and still does. Christians aren't being attacked. They are being called out on their issues.

4) Christians aren't second class citizens unless they happen to be LGBT as well. Christians are also very slowly, but surely becoming a minority in America. But it is primarily the Christian voice that is keeping a portion of our citizens kept without marriage rights, inheritance rights, and even just basic peace of mind. That is not something to take lightly nor ignore.

If it were a Muslim group calling for Sharia Law, or Atheists calling for the ban of religious names on holidays or secular locations, Christians would be in an uproar. But somehow, attacking homosexuality is the one banner Christians, no matter how secular previously, will jump on to ban together against it. That deserves attention because if they're willing to fight so hard against LGB Ts who or what is next? We've already seen their attacks on reproductive rights and women's health.

So before you get upset when the finger is pointed at your faith, consider very carefully how you want to try and defend someone who is obviously guilty. I don't see why the LGBT community needs the very people who are their main oppressors. It'd be like slaves needing their masters to be acknowledged as human.

I have a great idea! If Christians stop persecuting the LGBT community, that'll help a hell of a lot! In fact, it'll stop the major hurdle that is in their way!

edited 6th Aug '12 5:48:02 AM by Gabrael

Cameron didn't stab anyone, fine. He didn't protest people's funerals. To quote Chris Rock, "What do you want, a cookie?" As far as I'm concerned, you don't get to call a group of (more or less) innocent people a threat to civilization and then claim nice guy status.

Christianity has been a minority group. During their early years, Christians were massacred and persecuted horribly. That's part of why their original scripts were so dogmatic. They couldn't trust anyone, and it pretty much was them against the world.

That being said, Gabrael is also half-right in that no one, not even the most ignorant or knowledgeable of people can say what Christianity is or isn't. Not as a whole. That's like saying someone can say what "The Left" is. "Left" means different things in different parts of the world. What would be considered "Leftist" here in the States would be considered "Conservative" in other countries.

People can, however, state what their denomination of Christianity is about. And even then, only within their personal congregation.

Wait, what?

What's been going on?

How am I strawmanning?

Ok, let's say we ignore the fact the only reason I was raised in the Bible belt of a Judeo-Christian country was because my family fled the religious strife in Ireland as well as my entire collegiate career being based on my degrees in religious studies, where is the same hatred and attack on divorce that there is for the LGBT community?

Name me one mainstream figure, group, coalition, anything that is actively against LGBT rights that does not cite fundamental Christian values and beliefs as even just a part of their motivation? Even Democrats against LGBT rights cite the bible as their reasoning!

Gall? No not in the slightest. You instantly picked on the credibility of those doing the talking instead of their actual arguments. Can you say with an honest heart that the very kind of devisive language, regardless of it's degree of hate, is encouraging the treatment of LGB Ts as others?

If you are so used to calling out your own faith then you shouldn't be surprised when others do. I would love to see a Christian who is as strongly outspoken for gay rights as say a Christian like Rick Santorum is against them. Believe me, I've been looking. So have my collegues.

You constantly make comments based on emotion! How many times on a multitude of threads do you get in an uproar because you wanted everyone to know not all Christians were against gay marriage?

I don't feel you have proven me wrong. Without merit and basis? Again look at those people who wanted to restrict birth control and women's healthcare (including abortion rights). The leading advocates cited Christian faith either directly or indirectly as a contribution to their decisions.

You were so concerned with how restricting one group's First Amendment rights can lead to other's First Amendment rights being taken? Well look what's happening to LGB Ts, racial minorities, Muslims! It's already happening to an actual segment of our population! Gays cannot have access to basic inheiratance rights. Hispanics can be asked if they are illegal or not and forced to provide proof! It's already happening!

A truce or treaty? Are you freaking kidding me Starship?! What is this? War? No way! You always discount your opposition when they are in the legal and moral wrong. That very Amendment everyone likes to hide behind to protect their faiths and speech is also the same Amendment that says they have to keep that faith out of the secular government.

Now to me this has been tainted for a long time. If it hadn't gay rights would already be equal and this conversation wouldn't even be happening.

But just because you don't like my presentation of the facts doesn't mean you can accuse me of ignorace, especially when I am quite confident you've never translated your bible like I have. Which doesn't even matter because religious texts have no business in government policy.

Give me a name, an organization, a program, give me a fact to go off of. Because if you want to call me arrogant and self rightous then you better have something to back it up.

Not relevant, Gabe. Religion isn't on trial here.

You want to criticize religion's treatment of LGBTQ, go to the appropriate thread for it.

edited 6th Aug '12 7:58:39 AM by KingZeal

As long as politicians keep using their faith to make the laws, I fear that it will always be an overlapping conversation no matter how hard I try to keep faith out of it.

Nevermind.

edited 6th Aug '12 8:40:17 AM by Morgikit

Let's see if I can salvage this into a new discussion...

First of, sincere thanks for the congrats on my new family. They're awesome! The littlest boys, 10 and 9, have taken to calling me "Medic" and my girlfriend "Matusa" which means "aunt" in Romanian. The older ones are gradually picking that up instead of just "miss".

Now, here is where I am asking troper suggestions. There is a public school I can enroll the kids in. Then there is a special school with an ESL program because the two youngest have very broken English to begin with. My girlfriend and I have been discussing it and wondering if it wouldn't be better just to homeschool the kids instead of splitting them up into seperate school districts, let alone adding he stigma of being in a alternative program on top of having gay parents.

Luckily there is no policy issues preventing us from attending either school. It's just we've just moved here and are already having some issues moving in. I don't want to make it worse.

Home-schooling may be the way to go.

I'd love for you to be brave and put faith in the public school system, but . . . well, if wishes were fishes . . .

As a matter of general principles, I'd have a chat with your public school teachers and administrators and find out how open-minded they are before making any decisions. You may be pleasantly surprised. Or, if not, at least you know.

Fighteer's got it right. Information is key here.

Generally speaking, in a lot of states students with special needs are worth more budget to a school district. This has a salutatory effect on their reception by the district.

edited 6th Aug '12 11:53:45 AM by FastEddie