Garth Ennis and Superman

A point made in the Fights thread reminded me of this. Garth Ennis dislikes American superheroes because, essentially, none of them are willing to nuke a city into oblivion (oh, and I've heard rumours he doesn't like how superheroes crowd other genres out of the medium).

The exception is, of course, Superman, who Ennis actually likes and writes fondly and respectfully.

Has he ever said why he feels differently about Superman?

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It's probably not something you can understand. I've noticed with people, they tend to hate certain ideas and values but then if there's something that encapsulates them so completely, they love it.

I mean, I hate preachy political correctness and yet love Captain Planet, nerds hate anything that offends their sense of maturity and manliness and yet turn around and embrace the Brony culture, and here we have Garth Ennis. People just don't make sense, period.

Incidentally, I'd like to read that article where Ennis says he hates Superheroes. Can you furnish a linkie?

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It is probably a combination of two things. First, Superman is the Trope Codifier for Superheroes. Superman is allowed to get away with even some of the most ridiculous ideas of the Superhero genre because he invented them. Second, Garth Ennis likes to show that when Americans get over themselves that they can showcase the best about humanity, according to his TV Tropes page. Superman is an American who has gotten over himself, despite the fact that he has superpowers.

Wizard Needs Food Badly

There's a very, very well done issue of Garth Ennis's Hitman that has Superman in it. I don't know if it's been released in trade yet.

edited 11th Apr '11 6:47:10 PM by alliterator

I think this needs a citation. AFAICT, he tends to portray them as ridiculous in appearance and personality, self-righteous, irresponsible, arrogant, and lacking common sense or strategic thinking. I've seen no indication that he thinks a willingness to nuke cities is a good thing. In fact, The Boys and The Punisher leave me with the impression that one of the things he dislikes about superheroes is the potential collateral damage. Has he said something different in interviews?

Honestly, I was never impressed with how Ennis wrote Superman in that issue of Hitman. I thought it made Superman look like an idiot compared to his own creation Hitman.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.

The fact that Ennis isn't fond of superheroes is Common Knowledge; it's even stated on this very wiki. The bit about the nukes comes from here, though his opinion isn't so much "nukes are awesome!" as Marvel and DC never let their characters be put in a situation where they have a choice between enslavement of one country and genocide of another.

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I remember that in JLA/Hitman Superman was portrayed with a lot of respect. Especially compared to Kyle Rayner - Superman's good nature and idealism were positives, in Kyle's case they were show as sign of naivety.

Thank you. It does make much more sense in context, and raises a good point.

I think part of it is also that Ennis is a huge Americaphile, and Superman represents a positive side of America to him.

Groovy.

Ennis can get over himself, him and everyone else who claims to hate Super Heroes, yet continue to use them in their books.

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Yeah, if you want to get into the American comic market, you have to write superheroes before you can get your original material out there. That's simply the way it is.

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Calvin and Hobs, The Boondocks and Lio prove otherwise. What about Super Pro KO?

Darkstorm Studios, despite their mascot being a super hero, the majority of their work is not in the genre. In fact that's probably the point. True, the majority of the writers have other jobs, but that's because its a small company. So lets say to make it big you really do need to write super heroes and everyone who didn't got lucky. Yet when these people get the opportunity to write their own work they keep on writing super heroes. If they really had such great ideas they'd stop writing these "Deconstructions", "Parodies" and "Grimmifications" and other non entertaining crap just to remind us how much they hate super heroes. People are gettting by without super heroes and are doing it without $200 a page. Ennis needs to get over himself.

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Those are newspaper comics, not comicbooks. And good luck publishing a newspaper comic these days that isn't gag-per-day with simplistic art. Ideally, there shouldn't be any reason why a story of any genre and art style couldn't work just as well in either medium—and in the past, there wasn't, for the most part—but that's not the reality these days.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:09:02 PM by MetaFour

What about people who claim to hate superheroes and don't use them in their books?

I don't have to get over myself, do I? [is having apoplexy over this point]

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You know, I always wondered why Ennis put superheroes in his stories if he couldn't stand them. It seemed like he could never resist to remind people how inferior they were.

But then reading this topic, I realized he may not have a choice in the matter. Superheroes rule comics right now. That's what the bulk of people expect.

I still don't like how he's a dick to everyone of them ( I like supes, but other heroes have value as well) but when you're can only sneak in by doing something you hate, well, I can understand the anger.

One Strip! One Strip!

People who claim to hate superheroes and don't use them in their comics are doing exactly what they should be doing.Couldn't tell if you were joking.

Moe Dantes, not you Rob.

edited 12th Apr '11 9:20:23 PM by Cider

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I was serious.

did I come off as a troll or something?

I mean, it like having to go on American Idol to start your singing career, when you despise Reality Television.

Although it seems to go back farther than that.

One Strip! One Strip!

He meant me.

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I would like to point out that only super hero comics Ennis writers with his own material, not Marvel/DC properties, are parodies, where he is just making fun of superheroes. If he want to laugh at them, why he can't? Nobody else is doing a parody of the genre anyway.

@Cider: Since when is Preacher about superheroes?

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Another thing - most of deconstructions, at last the good ones, aren't hate fics, whore creators hate superheroes. Black Summer, No Hero, Supergod are done by Warren Ellis, who has a neutral stance on them, despite that many people think he hates them, only because he dared to make fun of Superman and Batman's costumes. Irredeemable is by Mark Waid, who is a big fan of superheroes and old-fashioned idealism. Dark Knightreturns deconstruct's Frank Miller's favorite hero. Saying that people who do deconstructions just hate superheroes is stupid.

Maybe its just me, but I always saw Ennis' treatment of superheroes as an evolution of the parody that MAD Magazine created with Superduperman. Just look at how he portrays the superheroes in The Boys.

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.

Huh? I was talking about people who hate superheroes and keep using them? Did I say anything bad about people who like superheroes and use them?

Irremediable, in that case I just think Superman gone wrong is a dead horse. For the most part I liked Warren Ellis's stuff, I liked All Star Batman and Robin by Frank Miller. I'm talking about people who hate superheroes yet keep doing superheroes anyway, Ennis is the most prominent case. I usually don't like his work anyway, the contradiction just makes me dislike his work more.

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Well, the way I see it you can still dislike something (like say Westerns), but still play with it. Hell, Neve Campbell hates Horror films and yet...Scream

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.