Full Metal Alchemist General

Half of the deaths mentioned were already pretty meaningless; not because they "became a number" but because nobody cared about the people who died. Nobody cared about Fu or chainsaw guy, they were just window dressing, and their deaths were very clearly meant to "up the stakes" (see how drawn out their death scenes are and how many people are crying when they die) but without actually sacrificing characters the audience really cared about.

When people say that the heroes needed to lose more at the end, while "more people needed to die" is an easy way to potentially solve that, what I think people are really asking for is meaningful loss. Hughe's death meant something, but that happened all the way back in chapter 15: same for Nina, which happened in chapter 5; you can't fuel a series level of "angst" on something so distant as that. After Hughes death, nothing the heroes lose every really stays lost again. Mustang gets his eyes back, Havok gets his legs back, Ran Fan gets a cool new arm, Maria Ross wasn't really dead, the Elrics didnt really kill their mother a second time, etc. Heck, even Ed get's his arm back before the final battle is over.

How is angst and death the measure of a series? This is not Attack on Titans.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:05:21 AM

Death and angst don't inherently define a work, but that's not what we're talking about.

I'm merely responding to Afro Production 96's assertion that the characters "suffered so much", which I find debatable. The degree of "suffering" a series has is almost always, by it's very nature, determined by how much death and/or angst is in it.

I'll agree they didn't wind up losing all that much, but counter it by saying "so?" I don't think them suffering more would've made it a better work or ending. They've earned their happy ending, throwing in bonus pain wouldn't make that any better or make their efforts any more impressive.

That said, would probably have preferred if Mustang didn't get his eyes back. Havoc I'm fine with since his suffering was background noise, but Mustang getting his sight back just felt like a slam on the UNDO button.

That's the premise of the franchise though.

I'm not saying they need to suffer more either: I just think that there need to be more meaningful consequences to their actions.

Mustang's eyes are a perfect example of what I mean; he loses his sight for about a chapter and a half, then instantly gets cured, no consequences, no lasting impact, no ramifications, no exploration of the new character dynamic, nothing. It just feels like too clean a wrap-up, like the author wanted a "dramatic twist" with him losing his sight, but didnt want to have to explore any of those things, or actually have lasting consequences for one of her characters, so she just hit the reset button.

Saying nobody cared about Fu and Bacunner is pretty presumtionous of you. Just because you didn't doesn't mean everyone didn't. I've seen people get pretty emotional when they both died and being able to injure Bradley hard;y makes their death meaningless.

Also Lan fan getting a new arm was still a painful lost for her as te girl was in complete agony before she got it and the supposed "cool new arm" put her in immense pain to point where her arm was starting to bleed.

It also wouldn't make sense if Roy stayed blind. Ed and Al spent the entire series trying to get back what they lost. Why shouldn't Roy? It was also the near the end of the series how much do you think they could do?

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:47:04 AM

Because he didnt spend the whole series trying to get his sight back?

The two aren't really comparable. Besides, for a series whose message is "equivalent exchange", Mustang getting his sight back after a few hours while also getting circle-less transmutation powers seems a lot like getting something for nothing to me.

Again, it was the near the end of the series. How much can they do?

Make a spin off series titled Flame Alchemist?

Not to mention the last stench of the series pretty much stated not to tie itself to Equivalent Exchange as Edward himself stated if that was the case for Roy losing his sights than that law is bullshit.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:51:15 AM

Because you seem to be ignoring what has been said previously, let me reiterate: what they "could have done" is not give him his sight back. Because that would have actually been a continuation and execution of the themes that the series had set up previously and proper follow thru on a plot point, instead of hitting the reset button the moment it isn't useful anymore.

Also, "equivalent exchange is basically bullshit", if we are to assume is the ending message of the series, then it basically proves my point, in that there really are no meaningful consequences to anything and everything will just work out in the end for the people god loves best.

Edited by Eldritcho on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:06:58 AM

If Roy couldn't get his eyesight back it would have little internal consistency with the mechanic's of the verse. Unlike Edward and Alphonse, Roy has no moral objections to using a Philosopher's Stone.

Edited by lycropath on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:56:54 AM

Right, that one just felt like a have your cake and eat it too situation.

Really though, either could be considered thematic as he unfairly lost his sight, thus getting it restored is equivalent exchange. That said, dealing with loss is another major theme and handwaving this potential loss away is a bit of a cop out.

So yeah. Either works thematically. I think him not getting his sight back works better from a general writing level, though.

Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 12th 2019 at 4:55:45 AM

It wouldn't make any type of sense to not give him his eyesight back if there's a doctor with a philosopher stone that specialize in medical alchemy that simply just heal him

It just come off as a forced bittersweet ending. It would be unnecessary.

Also that isn't what Creator's Pet even means. Last I check creator's pet means characters the arthur loves that the audience don't.

That SO tottally doesn't apply here. Everyone I know loves Roy Mustang.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:07:15 AM

If Mustang was going to get his sight back so quickly, then what was the point of him losing it to begin with?

Edited by VeryMelon on Feb 12th 2019 at 5:24:21 AM

1) If the things Truth takes away can be regained as easily as getting some lasic-eye surgery, then he's a pretty sucky omnipotent being. And if that is the case...

2) There is no reason Ed couldn't get his limbs back, as the series on multiple occasions shows that it is pretty easy to make human bodies from spare material, as long as you're not putting a soul into them.

3) And finally, the fact that Mustang sees nothing wrong with using a stone made from the souls of a people whom he himself helped slaughter, kind of tells me that maybe he isn't the right guy to be leading a country. Him choosing not to use the stone after knowing what it's made from, even if it left him sightless, would have actually shown a much more principled character who actually was better than Bradley.

You are arguing from a Watsonia perspective; we are arguing from a Doylist perspective. We're not even at the same table, here.

Edited by Eldritcho on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:10:47 AM

Nation Wide Transmutation Circle? Father needed him to open the gate.

1) That a bad comparison. It was establish from the very beggining that Philospher Stone could bypass equivalent exchange.

2) Not really. Ed theory is that human body parts are actually very cheap to make, doesn't mean it still an easy task. And alchemy does not work like that. You did see how Father made those....xerexes humans did you not?

3) Um, leaving the ishvlans in a stone and leaving them in complete agony instead of releasing there soul to help fix there homeland is a terrible decision, Mustang is already better principled to Bradley by outright trying the fix the damage he's done. That already makes him better.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:19:08 AM

Medicinal and bio alchemy are extremely delicate, Mei and Marcoh are both at the top of their fields with medical procedures and both of them rely heavily on conventional medicine or the Philosopher's Stone along with their abilities to treat anything but closing wounds and stopping bleeding. It seems trying to repair fine motor functions by attaching a alchemicly created arm is beyond the current ability of alchemy. Creating a functional body is also supposed to be difficult, both Marcoh and Roy's alchemically generated decoys where mentioned to not be up to snuff when looked at under scrutiny.

Also related is Bio-Alchemy which Edward and Al did research with Tucker but they couldn't find any good leads on being able to repair their bodies (The field is mentioned at this point said to be filled with dead ends) as well as the idea of creating a Hommonculous body for Alphonse (Also rejected because Alphonse's soul would just as soon reject the hommonculous body) and Greed died before they could extract the information from him.

Edward's morality is also not the be all to end all morality of the story (One of the things I do really like) while Edward was not okay with it, everyone else is okay with using the proverbially broken eggs to make omelettes. Even Alphonse when pushed by Heinkel was okay with using the stone.

Edited by lycropath on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:32:10 AM

All of the mannequin bodies seem to work just fine as far as motor functions are concerned, so it doesn't seem like bio-alchemy is out of the question, just that the research was under military lock and key.

And as far as morality of the series is concerned, it's something which feels way more like a "having your cake and eating it" situation than a case of multiple layers of morality to the story. Mainly in that just about everything else in the story is treated with a very black and white sense of things. And considering that in every other case in the series Ed's morality is the deciding factor (convincing Scar to quit his revenge, lecturing Miles, convincing Mustang not to "kill in hate", etc.) it seems pretty clear that Ed's way of doing things is meant to be seen as the right way. This is only doubly reinforced by how everyone else (who isn't Olivia or Marcoh) goes on about how they don't like killing, yet turn into badass action heroes the instant the fighting starts and dont really make anything of it.

It's just that whenever someone is killing that isn't for revenge or some such thing, Ed says nothing, even though he on many occasions preaches about the sanctity of life (of course, from an out of universe perspective, this is just so we can continue to have big violent action scenes). Frankly, it makes him come off as something of a hypocrite at times. But this is getting into a different and much deeper topic than Im really willing to commit to right now.

Edited by Eldritcho on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:51:59 AM

... Why should he have to spend a whole series trying to get his sight back?

Roy’s body was forcefully caused, against his will, to perform the transmutation by an external agent. He was violated and used as an object. Ed and Al (and Izumi) chose freely to break the taboo.

It’s worth noting that Mustang’s sight is an exponentially cheaper price than a limb, organ, or body, he’s partners with Riza who has the best eyes on the planet and target for him with pinpoint accuracy, and as noted, his vision could be restored by Marcoh via Philosopher’s Stone. Meanwhile, Hohenheim - who fathered an entire school of alchemy and *is* a Philosopher’s Stone - straight up told Izumi that he while could stop the blood vomiting there was nothing he could do to return what Truth took.

Ed got his arm back because Al refunded his soul jar for it. Al got his body back because Ed made a new deal and gave up his alchemy, the thing that caused all this to begin with, in exchange. Mustang was given a non-issue toll, that was able to be reversed while no other tolls were, because while Truth can be a bit of a dick, He calls bullshit when He sees it.

At least, that’s my point of view.

I imagine the point of Mustang losing his sight was for consistency's sake - the characters have to lose something when they see the truth, the fact that he didn't even do it on purpose hammers in how unfair the situation is even more.

As for him getting them back quickly cuts off potential for new dynamics, the series was almost over, that was never going to be explored to begin with. If it had happened early I could see a point in that complaint, but for what actually happened it doesn't carry much meaning.

This is blatantly false. Ed was adamantly opposed to killing Kimbly, which was ignored by Briggs, and even when faced with potentially doing so himself, chose not to. He also refused to kill those two brothers a Laboratory 4 or whatever. He also refused to kill Pride. None of that had to do with revenge or his view on the characters in questions moral character. That Edward can't control that other people have different views from him doesn't make him a hypocrite.

Edited by LSBK on Feb 12th 2019 at 6:47:35 AM

It's Winry who indirectly convinces Scar to give up revenge. Ed is probably willing to beat him to death. Scar's teacher also tries to veer him away from revenge.

On a separate note. May Chang and Xiao May are in the Pantheon now.

Why are souls exempt from Equivalent Exchange?

like seen in this comment. it's also breaking the energy law, since can neither be created or destroyed. and having the soul just be gone when you die would break Equivalent Exchange, since it doesn't follow the law of matter or energy

Souls just have much higher value then anything else in the verse and thus can be exchanged for virtually anything.

but what IS the value of a soul? because if that were the case, Philosopher Stones would only need one soul to do alchemy forever and clearly wouldn't run empty by something like Roy Mustang

Souls do indeed have finite value because they can be burned out, but their value seems to go higher then any one thing.

Edited by lycropath on Feb 14th 2019 at 11:42:21 AM