Lord of the Rings

The Eagle could have dropped Frodo into Mount Doom, Ring and all. There's no indication that touching a person who is touching the Ring causes any corrupting effects.

Now, whether the Eagle would have proven immune to the general temptation to keep the Ring is an open and unanswered question. Boromir succumbed merely by being near Frodo for a few weeks, but he started out with the ambition to use it. The Eagles are servants of Manwë and may be above such corruption, but it's never addressed because Tolkien did not choose that path for the narrative.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

The eagles in The Hobbit avoid areas of Wilderland because men living there would shoot at them with wooden bows and arrows; they’re limited in how far they can carry the dwarves. Likewise, when Gwaihir rescues Gandalf from Orthanc he takes him to Rohan, not Rivendell; he can’t carry him that far.

They flew into Mordor after the Ring when been destroyed, when its armies were in a state of shock and its fortifications were collapsing. If they flew in before that they could easily have been shot down, or destroyed by the Nazgûl. Taking them on in the Battle at the Black Gate was a last resort.

They’re not supernaturally powerful; they’re just large birds. Not like the eagles of the first age, who could fight dragons. The eagles in third-age Middle-earth may be associated with Manwë to an extent, as Ents are with Yavanna, but they’re not under his command. They’re like other regular people of Middle-earth, not divine emissaries like the Istari.

And on top of that, the “drop Frodo in Mount Doom” idea undermines basically every single core theme of the books!

Edited by Galadriel on Jun 23rd 2021 at 9:11:55 AM

I do not support dropping hobbits into live active volcanos!

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I think the idea behind the Eagle Express is that the Ring wouldn't have had time to corrupt Frodo enough, given how very long it had to work on him while he was making his way there on foot, and only just managed to stop him at the last moment. That's definitely the impression I got when How It Should Have Ended took the "just use eagles" position. I hadn't heard that sheer proximity to Mount Doom is the deciding factor, but it makes sense.

Also, the films (which the Eagle Express advocates are generally most familiar with) skip over the 20ish years Frodo kept the Ring hidden in Bag End while Gandalf was investigating it. A few weeks on the road would seem small potatoes compared to that.

It's not just proximity to the Ring that corrupts, it's active use of the Ring. Unlike Bilbo, Frodo never put it on while he had it in his keeping at Bag End. But the Ring also grows stronger as Sauron does and as it gets closer to Mount Doom.

We may recall that Isildur refused to destroy the Ring after having it in his possession for what could not have been more than a few hours... maybe a day or two, and after Sauron had been defeated and temporarily banished. If he couldn't do it, then nobody could have. Not Sam, not Frodo, not anyone.

The Eagle air-drop scenario is designed to avoid this by having the person making the decision to destroy the Ring not be the one in active possession of it and therefore unable to be directly influenced. Whether this would have worked is an interesting question that can only be answered by a writer, and since Tolkien had no intention of writing the story that way it's eternally moot.

Also, yeah, it would have been horrible to throw the Ringbearer into the Fire, so obviously that wouldn't have happened no matter how rational / logical the idea.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 23rd 2021 at 12:59:35 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

And even at Bag End Frodo couldn't even bring himself to toss the Ring into his own fireplace. It was already influencing him at that point.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Right. It might well be that had an Eagle carried Frodo to Mount Doom, the Eagle would have chosen not to drop him because of the Ring's influence. If someone tried to load the Ring into a trebuchet and aim it at the mountain, they would have refused at the last second to hit the release. It's not just that nobody can actively destroy it; nobody can take an action that would directly lead to its destruction no matter how far back they construct the chain of responsibility.

The lesson that Tolkien wished to convey with the Ring is that its power is truly irresistible (to any being of equal or lesser stature than Sauron, at least). In the end, no act of volition can destroy it, only an instant of pure chance that was made possible by two acts of kindness: Bilbo and Frodo each showing mercy to Sméagol.

In the context of Tolkien's religious beliefs and his desire to craft a mythology, it is strongly hinted that these serendipitous events are guided by Eru. Indeed, both Sauron's and Saruman's "deaths" are portrayed as their spirits being rejected by the Powers of the West (or by Eru himself).

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 23rd 2021 at 1:10:52 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

In the movies at least, the Ring's corruption can work frighteningly quickly. It takes seconds for Smeagol and Deagol, two close friends, to try to kill each other over it.

Disgusted, but not surprised

I think the strongest argument against the Eagle express is that Sauron almost certainly had control over Mordor's weather patterns. Not only did he send that cloud of darkness to aid his armies during the Siege of Minas Tirith, but the conversation between Gimli, Boromir and Gandalf during the attempt at the pass of Carhadras has Gandalf all but confirm that Sauron has such power. Boromir speculates about the unnatural weather, recalling that in Gondor the people tell tales of the Enemy having control of the storms above the Mountains of Shadow. Gimli then states that Sauron's arm has grown long indeed if he can affect the weather patterns of the Misty Mountains, leagues and leagues to the North. Gandalf's response to this is to simply state "his arm has grown long".

This essentially confirms both Boromir and Gimli's speculations about the unnatural weather that prevent their overland crossing of the Misty Mountains being the work of Sauron - but also by extension confirms the Gondorian belief that Sauron can control the storms above Mordor.

So, given all that, I think it there is a lot of evidence to support the theory that an Eagle express plan would have been thwarted by adverse weather conditions upon reaching Mordor, whether than be through gales, hail, lightning - fucking tornadoes, who knows - and it reinforces the wisdom of the original strategy of guile and secrecy that was chosen during the Council of Elrond.

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As for the Balrogs and their wings, I think it is notable that the text never implicitly describes them with wings. Every passage that is used to support the winged balrog theory is either a simile or a turn of phrase (that usually conveys speed rather than flight).

What we also have is a sort of consensus within the artistic community that the Balrogs look WAAAAY sicker if you give them wings.

IIRC, earlier versions of the Legendarium also may have had them riding flying dragons as mounts during the Fall of Gondolin, which IMO goes some way towards supporting the wingless balrog theory - it's not a hard refutation, but winged beings are less likely to need winged mounts after all.

Also the idea that immortal beings who chose their own forms would have vestigial wings is inherently nonsensical to me. The only way to make that fit is to drive straight into headcanon/fanfic territory, fuelled exclusively by the need to justify winged balrogs.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."

I think we were there as soon as people started arguing, "But maybe the simile wasn't actually a simile!"

Unless, of course, Balrogs themselves think they look waaayyyy sicker with wings.

Sure, but why not make wings that work?

Though making winged critters seems to be pretty hard in Middle Earth for some reason. Took Morgoth a long time to figure it out.

Sauron was described as the most capable in crafting a form for himself, meaning that it's more or less a skill. Some of the Ainur a better at it and some are not. Also, keeping in mind that Sauron himself lost the ability to take a fair form after Second Age I can say that the Balrogs' shapeshifting abilities were somewhat limited.

Spiral out, keep going.

It is implied by the way that evil beings work in Tolkien's writing that the Balrogs, like Morgoth and later Sauron, suffered from Shapeshifter Mode Lock after eons spent in their fiery, hateful forms. Over time, they lost the ability to assume any other appearance.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 25th 2021 at 9:36:40 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

> Took Morgoth a long time to figure it out.

Just picturing a montage of Morgoth trying to attach wings to his Balrogs ..

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"You guys are Me-damned shapeshifters! Grow some wings! How hard can it possibly be?"

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 25th 2021 at 9:55:25 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

"What do you mean the wings are just decoration?!"

Alternatively:

According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a Balrog should be able to fly. Its wings are too ethereal to get its fat giant body off the ground. The Balrog, of course, flies anyway because Balrogs don't care what Men think is impossible.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jun 25th 2021 at 7:08:24 AM

Plus, there's something to be said for the sheer intimidation factor of the already massive Balrog suddenly spreading huge wings made of shadow and flame. Anyone who is anything less than a superpowered ancient Elf or fellow Maiar would be too busy pissing themselves to wonder about whether or not said wings are functional.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Meanwhile, Luthien - who's 'only' a half-Maia - just throws on a vampire skin and starts flying up a storm.

Shoulda' paid more attention in flight school, Morgoth.

In that way they might function like something akin to a cobra's hood; a cobra needn't be able to glide to have a use for a large, flat surface that can be spread or closed on demand.

And touching on something that Fighteer said, I recall that the balrogs were described as originally having been bright spirits of fire. Perhaps they had functional wings then, too—and perhaps it was in falling under Melkor's influence that their wings were changed, and became lesser.

Indeed, combining the two, it may be that their wings changed to become not about freedom and movement but about intimidation and domination.

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I suppose there could be Great and lesser Balrogs,with the lesser ones being the ones Morgorth has in his armies alongside the Great Balrogs which are like Durin's bane

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In his defense, Morgoth "grew up" before the universe existed so there wasn't any air for flight

well there was space you can fly in space

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How are wings going to be useful for space flight, huh? What are the wings going to be pushing against to generate propulsion and lift in the empty vacuum of space, huh?!

C'mon, think, get with the program! This is Middle Earth, we use hard science here.

Well, if you want to take that approach, then I'll note that solar sails are a thing... :P

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